How Brokeback affected me

[trw]

Hi all. Here is an exemple of cultural impact: Has it allready been discussed?

http://www.brokebackmountainvermont.com/

[MindyM]

 think we need to make more movies like this with gay actors.  And I seriously hope other GLBT writers out there evolve from the ever-tiring drug addiction, AIDS deaths, coming out stories, hustlers, bed and breakfast guides, and empty sex encounters material that stocks the gay books stores and the 3 shelves at Barnes and Nobel.  Yawn.  There's all kinds of experiences that could be written about - Oscar Wilde, victorian women, police officers, Walt Whitman, a military story, coal miners, pioneers, gay racial minorities, Abe Lincoln, Commander Sulu.  Anything.

I wanted to touch on your mention of Abraham Lincoln.  His life has been on my mind a lot lately for a couple of reasons.  First, I'm reading the book Team of Rivals, The Political Genius of Abraham Lincoln by Doris Kearns Goodwin.  I love Lincoln.  I grew up in Central Illinois and we took many fieldtrips to New Salem, Springfield, etc.  I also get think he's a great man. Much has been made about his love life, that he was probably gay.  I never really objected to that theory. 

It just so happens that I was reading this new book and saw BBM around the same time.  I happened to be at a point in the story where Lincoln is forming a strong relationship with another man, Joshua Speed.  Kearns Goodwin did not skirt around this issue.  She writes extensively of their relationship and even mentions that people have speculated he was gay.  She did not dismiss this.  Rather she explained it in the context of the era they were living in. 

"Their intimacy, however, is more an index of an era when close male friendships, accompanied by open expressions of affection and passion, were familiar and socially acceptable.  Nor can sharing a bed bed considered evidence of an erotic involvement.  It was common practice in an era when  private sleeping quarters were a rare luxury, when males regularly slept in the same bed as children and continued to do so in academies, boarding houses, and overcrowded hotels."  In her book she quotes historian Donald Yacovone as saying the "preoccupation with elemental sex" reveals more about later centuries "than about the nineteenth."

I tried to touch on this point earlier in another post.  I think we try more than ever to define ourselves by rigid categories that never really allow us to fully undestand ourselves or other people.  It's so easy and comfortable to put everyone in those categories.  Sure a lot easier than scratching the surface-digging deeper. 

I see it over and over on this forum-we keep returning to those categories to define ourselves and our reaction to this movie.  Do I think Abraham Lincoln was gay?  He also was in love with a woman, Anne Rutledge.  She died and he was devestated by the loss.  Was he bisexual?  If we can answer those questions, does it change the way we view his contributions to the world?  Dare I say that "gay" people are partly responsible for keeping themselves pigeon-holed in their rigid categories?
 
Now, talk amongst yourselves and let me have it.

I appreciate your insight.  It's nice to see someone who has the courage to say something with which not everyone will necessarily agree.  I sometimes feel that I have to almost be deferential and apologize for being straight here.  Yet, this movie spoke to me in a way that no other movie has.  It illuminated the idea of same sex love and helped me to understand it.  I think that was a good thing.  I don't think it is at all necessary or relevant to discuss whether Lincoln was straight, bi or gay.  I don't think it matters, what does matter is what he did for this country and his leadership in a time when our union was in grave danger of being torn apart.  I will never understand why sexual orientation has to be brought up as though that explains why he did or did not act the way he did.  He was a man who championed the idea of equality and decried slavery and helped change the course of the nation.  That is all that matters to me.

As far as gays pigeon holing themselves, I can't speak to that.  That is for others to say.  What I can say is that I have a perspective on BBM that sometimes differs from many here.  I know that I have written quite a bit about my deep connection to Ennis, although I feel that he at times gets marginalized and viewed as a two dimensional character.  In an earlier post a few pages back, I felt compelled to write something and speak directly to him and try to let him know how I felt about him and that I understood him.   I love Ennis in all of his flawed humanity.  That may not be the majority view or the politically correct one, but that is how I see it and I will remain true to myself and my feelings.  He touched a place inside me that is so deep that I am not sure that I even knew that it was there.  There is a part of me that has some of the same qualities as Ennis and I needed to see that and know it.  I have been struggling for self acceptance all of my life, despite the fact that I am a straight person.  We still have those issues to deal with, maybe in a different context. I think when I dedicated my essay to him, I was also talking to myself, to let myself know that it's okay to be imperfect, to have fears, to have needs, to make mistakes, to try and fail.  That is what touched me about Ennis.  I felt a great weight lift off me after I wrote to him.  I have a sense of peace now and it feels really good.  I want to be able to come to terms with myself for who I am, not necessarily for the person I would like to be, or the person that others want or expect me to be.  I still want to work to be the best that I can be, but for me, not for others.

[BayCityJohn]

I empathize with the pain you have endured because of your sexuality.  I am completely too passionate for my own good.  I can internalize others'  feelings so much that I feel intense pain and suffering, even while it hasn't happened to me.  I am Jack and Ennis-because I'm human and I can understand such suffering.  I don't not understand it because I'm not gay.  Suffering is unique to all humans.   
I can change the world through my children-I can pass on these new ways of viewing the world through their eyes and actions. I can keep my thoughts to myself, but I'd rather discuss them with all of you-who seem to have some the same questions and thoughts.

I really haven't endured much pain because of my sexuality. Society's attitudes don't hurt me, they just piss me off.

The pain in my life has been caused by my being shy, introverted, closed, unable to really express emotions openly. I've been like this since I was a little kid.
 
That part of Ennis' personality affected me more than anything else. When he said 'that's the most I've spoken in a year', I heard a few people chuckle. I can see how they would find it funny, but I found it very real and personal. I've said the same thing myself more than once. It's hard to verbalize things sometimes, and that hurts. I don't understand why some of us are like that.

[amymm]

I appreciate your insight.  It's nice to see someone who has the courage to say something with which not everyone will necessarily agree.  I sometimes feel that I have to almost be deferential and apologize for being straight here.  Yet, this movie spoke to me in a way that no other movie has.  It illuminated the idea of same sex love and helped me to understand it.  I think that was a good thing.  I don't think it is at all necessary or relevant to discuss whether Lincoln was straight, bi or gay.  I don't think it matters, what does matter is what he did for this country and his leadership in a time when our union was in grave danger of being torn apart.  I will never understand why sexual orientation has to be brought up as though that explains why he did or did not act the way he did.  He was a man who championed the idea of equality and decried slavery and helped change the course of the nation.  That is all that matters to me.

As far as gays pigeon holing themselves, I can't speak to that.  That is for others to say.  What I can say is that I have a perspective on BBM that sometimes differs from many here.  I know that I have written quite a bit about my deep connection to Ennis, although I feel that he at times gets marginalized and viewed as a two dimensional character.  In an earlier post a few pages back, I felt compelled to write something and speak directly to him and try to let him know how I felt about him and that I understood him.   I love Ennis in all of his flawed humanity.  That may not be the majority view or the politically correct one, but that is how I see it and I will remain true to myself and my feelings.  He touched a place inside me that is so deep that I am not sure that I even knew that it was there.  There is a part of me that has some of the same qualities as Ennis and I needed to see that and know it.  I have been struggling for self acceptance all of my life, despite the fact that I am a straight person.  We still have those issues to deal with, maybe in a different context. I think when I dedicated my essay to him, I was also talking to myself, to let myself know that it's okay to be imperfect, to have fears, to have needs, to make mistakes, to try and fail.  That is what touched me about Ennis.  I felt a great weight lift off me after I wrote to him.  I have a sense of peace now and it feels really good.  I want to be able to come to terms with myself for who I am, not necessarily for the person I would like to be, or the person that others want or expect me to be.  I still want to work to be the best that I can be, but for me, not for others.

As far as the pigeon-holing, I mention the gay community because that's the context in which we are discussing the impact of the movie.  Like I mention, you can plug in "Muslims" for gay people and ask "are Muslims partly responsible for pigeon-holing themselves".  I use Muslims because my husband was raised Muslim and we discuss all of the time the responsibility the Muslim community for some of the misconceptions regarding this religion.    You can plug in anything.  Bill Cosby tried to stir the pot by suggesting blacks are partly responsible for their place in the world.

A friend who went to the movie with me said it didn't really affect her.  She thinks Crash will resonate more with her (she hasn't seen it yet).  She thinks it will mean more to her because her husband is black.  Really, he's mixed-but black because he's got about 50% black blood-but that's yet another tanget.  Anyway-I found it so telling-she automatically pigeon-holes herself and her daughter(-who's as white as me), into the "black experience".  It's the human experience dummy-is what I wanted to say to her.  But I don't waste my time.  She missed something so phenominally beautiful-because she couldn't possible relate to a couple gay ranch-hands.

I too have struggled with self-acceptance also-in so many areas of my life.  I have been told over and over to not completely speak my mind because it could get me into trouble.  This was big wedge between my mother and myself.  I know her fear was for my happiness-but I have listened to that for so long-I was on the verge of spiritual death-until Brokeback Mountain.  Thank God for the movie.  I can no longer deny who I am than I can stop breathing.  That is why I am here typing when I should be folding laundry.  I need to say all that's gone unsaid for so long because of fear.

Thanks for listening. 

[JoeNorthWest]

For my friends who have expressed their deep feelings of sadness and pain...I too, like you have expereinced profound sadness boarding on dispar after seeing this film.  This beautiful fim was like a magical key that somehow "broke" open my heart to feel these feelings that I now know have been there a long, long time.  There was a part of me that was "shut off" from others when it came to matters of intamacy.  And the years of loneliness, of lost loves, of unfulfilled dreams, of individuals I have hurt came flooding up when I saw this film.  And oddly enough as painful as it was to begin to embrace them, I could not stay away.  When I would play the music, or catch a glimpes the poster, old feelings of deep sadness and anger would again rise up....and I what I now know is that was the start of a healing process for me....what I am learning is that if I can't stand it, I have to go through it.  Or I stay stuck where I am.  Alone.  Even with many folks around me, if I don't begin to open up to intamacy, the feelings of emotional isolation is too umbearable.  All the fear I have around being hurt, being thrown away, being ridiculed, not being enough...is suffocating my spirit.  And I dont' want to live that way anymore...none of us do or we would not be here.  Something profound is going on...like how Annie said she felt she was being guided by a divine spirit, we too are.  I use to hang out in spirituality, thinking that was the answer...but it kept me from my humanity.  What I now know is that I must master becomeing a Human being if I want to be a spiritual master...and there is no short cut...today I say yes to my pain, yes to my sadness, yes to my anger, yes to joy, yes to happiness, yes to love...it is indeed a force of nature...how else could we have all been brought here...slowly, ever so slowly we are all healing....Joe

[MindyM]

I empathize with the pain you have endured because of your sexuality.  I am completely too passionate for my own good.  I can internalize others'  feelings so much that I feel intense pain and suffering, even while it hasn't happened to me.  I am Jack and Ennis-because I'm human and I can understand such suffering.  I don't not understand it because I'm not gay.  Suffering is unique to all humans.   
I can change the world through my children-I can pass on these new ways of viewing the world through their eyes and actions. I can keep my thoughts to myself, but I'd rather discuss them with all of you-who seem to have some the same questions and thoughts.

I really haven't endured much pain because of my sexuality. Society's attitudes don't hurt me, they just piss me off.

The pain in my life has been caused by my being shy, introverted, closed, unable to really express emotions openly. I've been like this since I was a little kid.
 
That part of Ennis' personality affected me more than anything else. When he said 'that's the most I've spoken in a year', I heard a few people chuckle. I can see how they would find it funny, but I found it very real and personal. I've said the same thing myself more than once. It's hard to verbalize things sometimes, and that hurts. I don't understand why some of us are like that.

That is why I was so surprised that I connected with Ennis so intensely.  Basically, I am much more like Jack, sweet, sensitive, emotional, talkative, outgoing, very giving to those I love, charming.  He is the one with whom I should have had the strongest connection.  But that wasn't what happened.  Althought I am shy with those I do not know, I have never had problems verbalizing my feelings.  I talk, sometimes way too much.  But I also know that I am very hard to get to know, I don't let a lot of people get really close to me.  People think they know me, but they really don't.  My ease in social situations belies the hidden shy, introverted, insecure me.  My problem has always been self acceptance, being true to myself instead of trying to please others and make them happy, meet their needs.  It's what I did all through my  marriage with disastrous results.  So I guess there are parts of me that are indeed like Ennis and they are the ones I try to hide the most.  But Ennis just opened it all up for me.  I also realized how important it is to learn to really like yourself, even with the flaws and the weaknesses.  I don't want to keep trying to be what others want me to be.  Maybe the sadness in Ennis is like the sadness in myself.  I had such an emotional experience the last time I saw the movie that I thought it would completely overwhelm me.  I just could not bear to see Ennis like that at the end.  That's why I wrote to him, but I was really trying to soothe myself, too.  Sometimes you connect in the most surprising ways with those who seem most unlike you.  But if you look deeper inside yourself, you find the source of the connection.

[Sebastian]

very interesting comments. I'm a gay man, and sometimes want to feel "special," sometimes want to belong and feel accepted by the world at large. maybe wanting to feel special is just a coping mechanism for not feeling completely accepted. seems like a lot of 'special interest groups' are trying to reclaim their heritage these days, feeling stifled by the status quo yet most probably do want to be recognized and honored for their 'specialness.'

Ang Lee spoke about the quandary of a gay relationship in a homophobic society providing the obstacle needed to plumb the depths of love... it's usually easier to appreciate something when you can't have it.      Romeo and Juliet were a great prototype, but these days few heterosexual relationships are as taboo as gay ones, so we seem to be the crucible in which this whole denial and loss of love thing is getting 'cooked.' like Joe, I've sought solace in the spiritual realms, and for me that has been tremendously helpful, but there's no avoiding the human element. Brokeback brought up the unfinished grief of a long-ago relationship and seems like it's healing more than ever, thanks to letting the feelings flow and reading/responding here with you Brokebackers. i liked what someone said that we all have parts of Jack and Ennis in us. in my "Brokeback" relationship I was more the Ennis, and that is where a lot of the grief comes from, but can also identify with Jack's idealism and believing that love can conquer all. this is a good place for all those parts to find a voice. I can relate to what some of you are saying about hiding a wounded Ennis inside of a seemingly-happy Jack [like the shirts in the closet]. Some of your posts have probably helped me to find more compassion for my 'inner Ennis.'

As Auntie Mame famously said, "Life is a banquet and most poor bastards are starving to death."
That theme has been echoed here when people say, "Don't end up like Ennis." By being completely and vulnerably human maybe we can get more in touch with our souls too. What cruel god would invite us to the feast if we weren't able to enjoy it?

[JoeNorthWest]

That is why I was so surprised that I connected with Ennis so intensely. Basically, I am much more like Jack, sweet, sensitive, emotional, talkative, outgoing, very giving to those I love, charming. He is the one with whom I should have had the strongest connection. But that wasn't what happened. Although I am shy with those I do not know, I have never had problems verbalizing my feelings. I talk, sometimes way too much. But I also know that I am very hard to get to know, I don't let a lot of people get really close to me. People think they know me, but they really don't. My ease in social situations belies the hidden shy, introverted, insecure me. My problem has always been self acceptance, being true to myself instead of trying to please others and make them happy, meet their needs. It's what I did all through my marriage with disastrous results. So I guess there are parts of me that are indeed like Ennis and they are the ones I try to hide the most. But Ennis just opened it all up for me. I also realized how important it is to learn to really like yourself, even with the flaws and the weaknesses. I don't want to keep trying to be what others want me to be. Maybe the sadness in Ennis is like the sadness in myself. I had such an emotional experience the last time I saw the movie that I thought it would completely overwhelm me. I just could not bear to see Ennis like that at the end. That's why I wrote to him, but I was really trying to soothe myself, too. Sometimes you connect in the most surprising ways with those who seem most unlike you. But if you look deeper inside yourself, you find the source of the connection.

Dear Mindy,
I feel like we are kindred spirits from reading you last post...though I am a gay man...I used a lot of the same behaviors of "people pleasing" to try and get others to like me, or to keep the peace, or for a thousand other reasons...on the outside, most would perceive me as Jack...very friendly, easy going, fun, enthusiastic, optimistic, etc.   And though there are some truths in that, some of those behaviors were a cover up for the insecure part of me as you were describing....and therefore, no one ever REALLY knew me...and I've been leanring more and more to just open up and be "real"...I think there is Jack and Ennis is all of us...they are powerful universal archetypes and I know that's in party why this film touches "everone".  And I have always appreciated your openness and your thoughts.  Ultimately we are all connected, and I think you are absolutely right...if we look deep enough, we are all the same.  I don't know a single human being that does not want to feel safe, seen, heard and understood.  Isn't that by definition one aspect of being loved?    Joe

[amymm]

I empathize with the pain you have endured because of your sexuality.  I am completely too passionate for my own good.  I can internalize others'  feelings so much that I feel intense pain and suffering, even while it hasn't happened to me.  I am Jack and Ennis-because I'm human and I can understand such suffering.  I don't not understand it because I'm not gay.  Suffering is unique to all humans.   
I can change the world through my children-I can pass on these new ways of viewing the world through their eyes and actions. I can keep my thoughts to myself, but I'd rather discuss them with all of you-who seem to have some the same questions and thoughts.

I really haven't endured much pain because of my sexuality. Society's attitudes don't hurt me, they just piss me off.

The pain in my life has been caused by my being shy, introverted, closed, unable to really express emotions openly. I've been like this since I was a little kid.
 
That part of Ennis' personality affected me more than anything else. When he said 'that's the most I've spoken in a year', I heard a few people chuckle. I can see how they would find it funny, but I found it very real and personal. I've said the same thing myself more than once. It's hard to verbalize things sometimes, and that hurts. I don't understand why some of us are like that.

That is why I was so surprised that I connected with Ennis so intensely.  Basically, I am much more like Jack, sweet, sensitive, emotional, talkative, outgoing, very giving to those I love, charming.  He is the one with whom I should have had the strongest connection.  But that wasn't what happened.  Althought I am shy with those I do not know, I have never had problems verbalizing my feelings.  I talk, sometimes way too much.  But I also know that I am very hard to get to know, I don't let a lot of people get really close to me.  People think they know me, but they really don't.  My ease in social situations belies the hidden shy, introverted, insecure me.  My problem has always been self acceptance, being true to myself instead of trying to please others and make them happy, meet their needs.  It's what I did all through my  marriage with disastrous results.  So I guess there are parts of me that are indeed like Ennis and they are the ones I try to hide the most.  But Ennis just opened it all up for me.  I also realized how important it is to learn to really like yourself, even with the flaws and the weaknesses.  I don't want to keep trying to be what others want me to be.  Maybe the sadness in Ennis is like the sadness in myself.  I had such an emotional experience the last time I saw the movie that I thought it would completely overwhelm me.  I just could not bear to see Ennis like that at the end.  That's why I wrote to him, but I was really trying to soothe myself, too.  Sometimes you connect in the most surprising ways with those who seem most unlike you.  But if you look deeper inside yourself, you find the source of the connection.

Now we're getting down to the humanness (a word?) of this movie.  We are talking about these characters as humans-plain and simple.

 I too found that I am more like Jack on the surface.  I can chit-chat with the best of them. I seem at ease in social situations.  But I only show myself true self to a select few-because I know those who enjoy my chit-chat probably wouldn't enjoy the deeper aspects of my true self.  I'm accutely aware that I'm different on a very profound level, and I instintcively protect myself from possibility of people discovering my true self. 

MindyM-I too have tried to please others to a fault.  Luckily-I haven't destroyed my marriage-but I did a lot of damage at times.  I know my husband was first attracted to me because of those deeper, often hidden parts of myself.  He saw those and needed them to complement who he is.  But over the years, I have ignored those parts of myself, because I thought I had to to please my family-to give and give until I didn't even recognize myself anymore.  That's where I was before the movie.

[Brokeback Fan 400]

Better expressed through the e-cards

http://www.brokebackmountain.com/ecards/

A great viral tool to get the word out.  The cards have been featured on Defamer, Pink is the New Blog, Perez Hilton, and many other entertainment sites.  Everyone is using them to spread the powerful message of brokeback mountain. 

[jakelikethat]

funny - i find myself in precisely the opposite situation.  outwardly, i am ennis all over.  i am very quiet, a natural loner, can totally relate to the "hell, that's more words than i've spoke in a year" aspect of ennis.  mostly, i simply have nothing to say.  but if i do speak, you'd sure as hell better listen.   i also have a silent rage simmering inside me, that i usually keep a tight lid on.  no-one would ever know it was there, from my passive and introverted outward demeanour.  but occasionally it threatens to bust right out and break stuff.   

BUT, i have this inner jack twist that yearns to be the ro-dee-yo star, to be the centre of attention and pull all the girls and boys in the bar, so i can blithely choose one and mosey off with him or her to the motel siesta to break the bed.   and who longs to have my very own ennis to love and to teach how to love me back.

any other outer ennis/inner jacks out there??  what they do?  maybe go to denver?


jake

[BenKing]

very interesting comments. I'm a gay man, and sometimes want to feel "special," sometimes want to belong and feel accepted by the world at large. maybe wanting to feel special is just a coping mechanism for not feeling completely accepted. seems like a lot of 'special interest groups' are trying to reclaim their heritage these days, feeling stifled by the status quo yet most probably do want to be recognized and honored for their 'specialness.'

Ang Lee spoke about the quandary of a gay relationship in a homophobic society providing the obstacle needed to plumb the depths of love... it's usually easier to appreciate something when you can't have it.      Romeo and Juliet were a great prototype, but these days few heterosexual relationships are as taboo as gay ones, so we seem to be the crucible in which this whole denial and loss of love thing is getting 'cooked.' like Joe, I've sought solace in the spiritual realms, and for me that has been tremendously helpful, but there's no avoiding the human element. Brokeback brought up the unfinished grief of a long-ago relationship and seems like it's healing more than ever, thanks to letting the feelings flow and reading/responding here with you Brokebackers. i liked what someone said that we all have parts of Jack and Ennis in us. in my "Brokeback" relationship I was more the Ennis, and that is where a lot of the grief comes from, but can also identify with Jack's idealism and believing that love can conquer all. this is a good place for all those parts to find a voice. I can relate to what some of you are saying about hiding a wounded Ennis inside of a seemingly-happy Jack [like the shirts in the closet].

As Auntie Mame famously said, "Life is a banquet and most poor bastards are starving to death."
That theme has been echoed here when people say, "Don't end up like Ennis." By being completely and vulnerably human maybe we can get more in touch with our souls too. What cruel god would invite us to the feast if we weren't able to enjoy it?

Brokeback Catskill:

Here is something that will make all of you feel special.  I was just driving up my road this afternoon and I saw two guys riding western.  It's finally warm out today.  They were both shirtless and wearing cowboy hats AND I can't believe they were riding western!!  So beautiful.  No one rides western around here. 

Their horses (a dark bay mare and I think a standard bred gelding, tan colored) were a little on the fat side and the guys were pretty real looking, not Genre magazine types, but definately good looking.  One guy was blonde, one guy was brunette.  Definately family.  It was so cool to see.  I grew up with horses (riding English) and gave them a lite honk and a casual wave as I drove by slowly.  My Caddy has a pretty loud horn and I always hated it when cars spooked my horses, so I was real nice.  I think they might be our new neighbors.

The best part was that one of them was talking on a cell phone.  Man ... I love New York.

[JoeNorthWest]

The best part was that one of them was talking on a cell phone. Man ... I love New York.

That is a fucking laugh out loud comment!  Made my day.  I spent five years on a ranch living over a barn (no BS) with on quarter horse (palamino) and on e chesnut guilding...loved the smell of them and the hey....anyway, I could not resist commenting!  Thanks for the great laugh!...Joe

[BenKing]

I feel compelled to contribute to this board after I read about attempts at censorship.
The offer to post on another board may be given as a defence, but I don't buy it. What a kick in the teeth to the key players of BBM that some fans would attempt such. A far greater kick in the teeth than not getting a stupid oscar.

I'm totally with Redbrit and jim.grrr regarding this matter. I also think too much compartmentalism is counter-productive. If a regular poster feels compelled to write about BBM in the context of the present political climate, I can't see the harm in that. If anything it's probably for the good. I think it's rather selfish to deny such a poster his voice. By virtue of the fact that such a person is a regular poster, his political postings are in the context of what he has before written, and will in future write.(I hope) The attempt to shunt his political postings to another board breaks the flow of ideas and I for one think that's harmful. Why can't one just go with the flow, if one feels tweaked enough to respond, do so. That way, real progress and insight can occur. I think as long as one speaks their truth from the heart, one shouldn't be too concerned about hurting feelings. I think it's good for us all to be knocked out of our comfort zones', at times. Like all comfort zones they are probably an illusion, anyway.

Regarding the statement that the American political landscape isn't relevent to non- Americans, I totally disagree. It's a well known fact that where America leads, the rest of the western world, if not the whole world tends to follow. A lot of contemporary American culture/ attitudes are rooted in countries such as Ireland, where I'm from and live, and the UK. A while back, an  Italian politician who is a staunch catholic lost his EU job because his views were deemed to be in conflict with his position. Around that time, it was said that conservative elements in Europe were very upset and that alliances were being formed in a backlash manner to the event.
Remind you of anywhere else? No, I don't think we can be too complacent on this side of the pond regarding political issues. Disregarding the self-interest involved in keeping a watchful eye on American politics, would it not be very mean-spirited and selfish of us not to be concerned  and interested regarding what's happening to our American brothers? I mean to the degree that we would object to them voicing political concerns- Shameful. That's not even taking into account that most folk posting here are American.     

strazeme, I sure hope you find the light. As a matter of fact, I think you have been given a glimmer of it by this great film. Please don't give up, I'm sure there is a way forward.

amymm, a great post and so true.(regarding categories) Your post is challenging and all the better because of it.

Thanks to all posters for all the great insights.

fk,

Understand simply that politics is soiled and usually meant to insight violence in the United States.  "Debates" are more often glorified shouting matches where no one learns another's viewpoint but rather are attempts to mount the biggest attack against whatever group or ideal one party is most afraid of.  Most people here are so burned out on political spews because they are unhealthy and make everyone feel bad because it's usually over issues that don't in reality affect everyday life.

I say keep it off this thread at least.

Ben

[DaveinPhilly]

The best part was that one of them was talking on a cell phone. Man ... I love New York.

That is a fucking laugh out loud comment!  Made my day.  I spent five years on a ranch living over a barn (no BS) with on quarter horse (palamino) and on e chesnut guilding...loved the smell of them and the hey....anyway, I could not resist commenting!  Thanks for the great laugh!...Joe

Fantastic sighting! Thanks for passing it along to us city slickers. Yee Haw!


And to Sebastian - boy do I resonate with your remarks about sometimes wanting to be special and sometimes wanting to fit in. I guess it's part of the human condition, but after this film, I don't feel I need to be anybody but me.

Yes we are invited to the banquet and it's time we accepted the invitation.

DaveinPhilly