How Brokeback affected me

[Erik]

ah no, there are a lot of hotels i see now, just the most expensive one on top!

[Erik]

Really? is it so bad? I'm not used to that, normally i just book a room for two persons. It's not their business if the second person is my boyfriend or anyone else for that matter, isn't it?'  You make me really scared now.. travelling to the west... where the Christian Taliban rule!!!

[Erik]

Well people, going out now.. 09.30 pm = Greek dinner time! A friend made reservations at one of the nicest restaurants of the island.. guess why, he told me because he wants to talk quietly about Brokebck Mountain!

I have this urge to smoke again.. just like Ennis and Jack... stupid

[DaveinPhilly]

Really? is it so bad? I'm not used to that, normally i just book a room for two persons. It's not their business if the second person is my boyfriend or anyone else for that matter, isn't it?'  You make me really scared now.. travelling to the west... where the Christian Taliban rule!!!

I've never had a problem booking for two persons. Most places in the US have 2 beds for 2 persons so it doens'nt make a difference to anybody unless you're in Childress, I guess...

[BayCityJohn]

Really? is it so bad? I'm not used to that, normally i just book a room for two persons. It's not their business if the second person is my boyfriend or anyone else for that matter, isn't it?'  You make me really scared now.. travelling to the west... where the Christian Taliban rule!!!

No Erik! It isn't like that! It's a nice part of the country. I love going out west. I have never had a problem.
You will love it too!

Like I said before, I've encountered a lot more homophobia in Europe than here in the U.S.
Our government may be run by idiots, but the people are great.

[Sebastian]

I have this urge to smoke again.. just like Ennis and Jack... stupid

Hmmmm, come to think of it I did buy a pack of cigarettes not long after seeing Brokeback. uh oh. 


do you live in Greece, Erik?

[amymm]

 think we need to make more movies like this with gay actors.  And I seriously hope other GLBT writers out there evolve from the ever-tiring drug addiction, AIDS deaths, coming out stories, hustlers, bed and breakfast guides, and empty sex encounters material that stocks the gay books stores and the 3 shelves at Barnes and Nobel.  Yawn.  There's all kinds of experiences that could be written about - Oscar Wilde, victorian women, police officers, Walt Whitman, a military story, coal miners, pioneers, gay racial minorities, Abe Lincoln, Commander Sulu.  Anything.

I wanted to touch on your mention of Abraham Lincoln.  His life has been on my mind a lot lately for a couple of reasons.  First, I'm reading the book Team of Rivals, The Political Genius of Abraham Lincoln by Doris Kearns Goodwin.  I love Lincoln.  I grew up in Central Illinois and we took many fieldtrips to New Salem, Springfield, etc.  I also get think he's a great man. Much has been made about his love life, that he was probably gay.  I never really objected to that theory. 

It just so happens that I was reading this new book and saw BBM around the same time.  I happened to be at a point in the story where Lincoln is forming a strong relationship with another man, Joshua Speed.  Kearns Goodwin did not skirt around this issue.  She writes extensively of their relationship and even mentions that people have speculated he was gay.  She did not dismiss this.  Rather she explained it in the context of the era they were living in. 

"Their intimacy, however, is more an index of an era when close male friendships, accompanied by open expressions of affection and passion, were familiar and socially acceptable.  Nor can sharing a bed bed considered evidence of an erotic involvement.  It was common practice in an era when  private sleeping quarters were a rare luxury, when males regularly slept in the same bed as children and continued to do so in academies, boarding houses, and overcrowded hotels."  In her book she quotes historian Donald Yacovone as saying the "preoccupation with elemental sex" reveals more about later centuries "than about the nineteenth."

I tried to touch on this point earlier in another post.  I think we try more than ever to define ourselves by rigid categories that never really allow us to fully undestand ourselves or other people.  It's so easy and comfortable to put everyone in those categories.  Sure a lot easier than scratching the surface-digging deeper. 

I see it over and over on this forum-we keep returning to those categories to define ourselves and our reaction to this movie.  Do I think Abraham Lincoln was gay?  He also was in love with a woman, Anne Rutledge.  She died and he was devestated by the loss.  Was he bisexual?  If we can answer those questions, does it change the way we view his contributions to the world?  Dare I say that "gay" people are partly responsible for keeping themselves pigeon-holed in their rigid categories?
 
Now, talk amongst yourselves and let me have it.

[BayCityJohn]

I see it over and over on this forum-we keep returning to those categories to define ourselves and our reaction to this movie.  Do I think Abraham Lincoln was gay?  He also was in love with a woman, Anne Rutledge.  She died and he was devestated by the loss.  Was he bisexual?  If we can answer those questions, does it change the way we view his contributions to the world?  Dare I say that "gay" people are partly responsible for keeping themselves pigeon-holed in their rigid categories?
 
Now, talk amongst yourselves and let me have it.

No it doesn't change the way I view Lincoln's contributions, but it helps in understanding why he was the person we know.

But I don't fell like I'm pigeon-holeing myself by talking about how I view the movie or anything else as a 'gay' person.

I don't feel like I fit into the 'gay' community or the 'straight' community. It's like a great big party in both communities that I'm not invited to.

Somene said that after seeing the movie they realized that gay people were 'just like us'. I don't agree. We are different. The world see us as different. It's an integral part of who I am and how I see the the world. I cannot and will not pretend to be unaffected by the way society, religion, government, etc. have made me feel.

[DaveinPhilly]

Well, dear, it's one thing to be pigeonholed and another to be something. Nobody forced me (sure they tried) to be other than what I am. Gay and proud and happy about it, but in Lincoln's time, well, sure no question if he were gay it would have been impossible to accomplish what he did. I don't think too much about whether he was gay or not, he was still our greatest president, bar none. Probably just a good sensitive man who wasn't 100% straight, but then few are 100%... I probably have 1% that's not sure. Oops, better not tell my partner.

Love your posts.
DaveinPhilly

[fk]

I feel compelled to contribute to this board after I read about attempts at censorship.
The offer to post on another board may be given as a defence, but I don't buy it. What a kick in the teeth to the key players of BBM that some fans would attempt such. A far greater kick in the teeth than not getting a stupid oscar.

I'm totally with Redbrit and jim.grrr regarding this matter. I also think too much compartmentalism is counter-productive. If a regular poster feels compelled to write about BBM in the context of the present political climate, I can't see the harm in that. If anything it's probably for the good. I think it's rather selfish to deny such a poster his voice. By virtue of the fact that such a person is a regular poster, his political postings are in the context of what he has before written, and will in future write.(I hope) The attempt to shunt his political postings to another board breaks the flow of ideas and I for one think that's harmful. Why can't one just go with the flow, if one feels tweaked enough to respond, do so. That way, real progress and insight can occur. I think as long as one speaks their truth from the heart, one shouldn't be too concerned about hurting feelings. I think it's good for us all to be knocked out of our comfort zones', at times. Like all comfort zones they are probably an illusion, anyway.

Regarding the statement that the American political landscape isn't relevent to non- Americans, I totally disagree. It's a well known fact that where America leads, the rest of the western world, if not the whole world tends to follow. A lot of contemporary American culture/ attitudes are rooted in countries such as Ireland, where I'm from and live, and the UK. A while back, an  Italian politician who is a staunch catholic lost his EU job because his views were deemed to be in conflict with his position. Around that time, it was said that conservative elements in Europe were very upset and that alliances were being formed in a backlash manner to the event.
Remind you of anywhere else? No, I don't think we can be too complacent on this side of the pond regarding political issues. Disregarding the self-interest involved in keeping a watchful eye on American politics, would it not be very mean-spirited and selfish of us not to be concerned  and interested regarding what's happening to our American brothers? I mean to the degree that we would object to them voicing political concerns- Shameful. That's not even taking into account that most folk posting here are American.     

strazeme, I sure hope you find the light. As a matter of fact, I think you have been given a glimmer of it by this great film. Please don't give up, I'm sure there is a way forward.

amymm, a great post and so true.(regarding categories) Your post is challenging and all the better because of it.

Thanks to all posters for all the great insights.

[mcnell1120]

As I mentioned yesterday my friend and I saw the last show at 7pm Thursday in Mt. Prospect Il. As the movie started we about flipped because the wrong lens was on the projector, which rendered all of the actors like midgets in a fun-house mirror. My partner immediately got up and complained, and got the problem fixed, just as Aguirre was inviting the boys into the trailer for the first time.

This is not too far from where I live.....I live in Niles..cross the street and it's Chicago...

Nellie

[jakelikethat]

 think we need to make more movies like this with gay actors.  And I seriously hope other GLBT writers out there evolve from the ever-tiring drug addiction, AIDS deaths, coming out stories, hustlers, bed and breakfast guides, and empty sex encounters material that stocks the gay books stores and the 3 shelves at Barnes and Nobel.  Yawn.  There's all kinds of experiences that could be written about - Oscar Wilde, victorian women, police officers, Walt Whitman, a military story, coal miners, pioneers, gay racial minorities, Abe Lincoln, Commander Sulu.  Anything.

not to pimp my own work or anything but.... i have written a short story which focuses on police officers.  a studio in vancouver approached me and asked if i would convert it to a screenplay, which they wanted to make into a film for the indie festival circuit.  still not certain about the veracity of their offer, which i requested in writing but still haven't heard back from them.  anyhoo that's the scoop. 

anyone got an "in" with a gay-theme-friendly indie production company??

jake

/pimp

[amymm]

I see it over and over on this forum-we keep returning to those categories to define ourselves and our reaction to this movie.  Do I think Abraham Lincoln was gay?  He also was in love with a woman, Anne Rutledge.  She died and he was devestated by the loss.  Was he bisexual?  If we can answer those questions, does it change the way we view his contributions to the world?  Dare I say that "gay" people are partly responsible for keeping themselves pigeon-holed in their rigid categories?
 
Now, talk amongst yourselves and let me have it.

No it doesn't change the way I view Lincoln's contributions, but it helps in understanding why he was the person we know.

But I don't fell like I'm pigeon-holing myself by talking about how I view the movie or anything else as a 'gay' person.

I don't feel like I fit into the 'gay' community or the 'straight' community. It's like a great big party in both communities that I'm not invited to.

Somene said that after seeing the movie they realized that gay people were 'just like us'. I don't agree. We are different. The world see us as different. It's an integral part of who I am and how I see the the world. I cannot and will not pretend to being unaffected by the way society, religion, government, etc. have made me feel.

Now that I have at least one response I feel like I can elaborate a bit more.  I am not ignorant enough to think that they way you view yourself is shaped and molded by how society sees you.  You can take out the word "gay" and plug in any other category and the same question remains.  My husband is Asian Indian and was raised a Muslim.  His name is Mohammad.  Right there you have some pretty heavy categories.  Many people, upon seeing him, assume he must be a Hindu because he's Indian.  Some see or hear is name and realise he's a Muslim, automatically they make new assumptions.

Many people try and categorize our marriage-is is interracial?  Well, Asian Indians are caucasians-so we aren't interracial.  I'm supposed to decide what our three children are-white? asian? indian?  I just find it absurd that we even go through these motions.  I refuse to categorize myself.  I know society will do it-but that's their problem.  I know my marriage and my children are changing the world and how society views people.  Society will categorize you-to try and explain away your differences.  It's human nature.

I empathize with the pain you have endured because of your sexuality.  I am completely too passionate for my own good.  I can internalize others'  feelings so much that I feel intense pain and suffering, even while it hasn't happened to me.  I am Jack and Ennis-because I'm human and I can understand such suffering.  I don't not understand it because I'm not gay.  Suffering is unique to all humans.   

The aim of my original post is to promote compassion and understanding, not ignorance or bigotry.  I know I can be misunderstood, but if you dig deeper, you will see my meaning.  I feel like we can move on to broader discussions about the impact of this movie.  I just want to see that happen, if it is possible.  I guess it goes back to someone saying this forum has gotten narrower.  So many of us seem stuck-feeling depressed the movie is leaving the theater-where do we go from here?

Discussing the deeper issues is one way I see of moving on.  I feel that I can change the world through my children-I can pass on these new ways of viewing the world through their eyes and actions. I can keep my thoughts to myself, but I'd rather discuss them with all of you-who seem to have some the same questions and thoughts.

[blubird]

NOW THAT THE MOVIE HAS ENDED in my neighborhood I after 13 viewings have a brand new perspective, courtesy of our beloved Brokeback. Love is the force of nature and it doesnt seem to matter what your object of affection is, just love somebody or something. Even our good friend Jake G has a new dog that he loves very much. These poor and desperate cowboys found love and life where there wasn't any before and held onto it even as life pummelled them in different ways. And yes they suffered for it, but on the whole it brought meaning and beauty and wonder to them where things might have been just drudgery.                                                                                                                                       I have adjusted my priorities as well and have learned well from the cowboys and my multiple viewing. First, I am who I am. I'd like to meet a "Lureen" and take her cruising in my T-Bird. But along the way, if I meet a "Jack", it's like oh well, "that's hard" if anyone else doesn't like it. But I suspect that won't be a problem. I live in a well-known beach front community that is something like Venice. I estimate that about 40 ~ 50% of the young and not so young men here are gay, bi or have secret f*** buddies or want to have. I know this city well and I'm sure of it. The beautiful American panoramas as well as the characters ought to do this nation proud, especially when our dear country has been the subject of so much bad press lately. There is so much more that this movie states and doesn't state and many participants here have contributed so much. This event of the Brokeback Mountain is a watershed moment. As permanent and unmoving as the mountains themselves.

[BayCityJohn]

 

The aim of my original post is to promote compassion and understanding, not ignorance or bigotry.  I know I can be misunderstood, but if you dig deeper, you will see my meaning.  I feel like we can move on to broader discussions about the impact of this movie.  I just want to see that happen, if it is possible.  I guess it goes back to someone saying this forum has gotten narrower.  So many of us seem stuck-feeling depressed the movie is leaving the theater-where do we go from here?

Discussing the deeper issues is one way I see of moving on.  I feel that I can change the world through my children-I can pass on these new ways of viewing the world through their eyes and actions. I can keep my thoughts to myself, but I'd rather discuss them with all of you-who seem to have some the same questions and thoughts.

amymm. I don't misunderstand your post at all. I think it's great. I wish I had the patience to express myself as well as you do.

I just won't take the responsibility for the pigeon-holeing. Like you said, it's society that does the categorizing.

That's one of the best things about Brokeback Mountain, that it is bringing us all together to discuss these things.