How Brokeback affected me

[Jenny]

Okay, guys, I need to share this.  I finally got my husband of 21 years to come see this movie with me.  We went to an afternoon showing: maybe 8 other people in the theater.  He reached over and held my hand from the final argument all the way to the end.  This was our conversation after we left the theater:

Me:  How did you like it?

Him: It was an excellent movie.  I'm glad I saw it.

Me: You didn't think it dragged or was too slow?

Him:  Not at all.  I thought the pacing was great.

Me:  Didn't you think Heath Ledger was terrific?

Him:  I thought they both were terrific.

We're silent for a minute.  I figured okay, I guess that's where we're going to leave it.  Then he turns to me and says:  "I think that's the first big movie I've seen in a long time where they got it right about how love is."  I asked what he meant, and he says: "Those guys got disappointed and hurt and angry with each other and kept on loving each other anyway.  They weren't sitting there going: "You're the love of my life.  Everything about you is perfect."  They just kept coming back and trying the best they could to give each other someone who knew what it was like for them."  And then he adds this:  "They lost everything in the end, but they were still damn lucky."

[Redbrit]

am i alone in thinking that on some level, alma jr. knows? 

god, i love this forum.

garry - i dig it.  we're all in this together, man.



jake

Yeah - I tend to think that - 'Maybe he's not the marrying kind'. I think she suspects something, but we're never told enough to be sure how much. My own favourite scenario for saving our boys is Alma Jr. cottoning on and knocking their heads together until they get thay cow and calf operation going. Don't cross Alma Jr. when she's protecting her two dads!

[mcnell1120]

Okay, guys, I need to share this. I finally got my husband of 21 years to come see this movie with me. We went to an afternoon showing: maybe 8 other people in the theater. He reached over and held my hand from the final argument all the way to the end. This was our conversation after we left the theater:

Me: How did you like it?

Him: It was an excellent movie. I'm glad I saw it.

Me: You didn't think it dragged or was too slow?

Him: Not at all. I thought the pacing was great.

Me: Didn't you think Heath Ledger was terrific?

Him: I thought they both were terrific.

We're silent for a minute. I figured okay, I guess that's where we're going to leave it. Then he turns to me and says: "I think that's the first big movie I've seen in a long time where they got it right about how love is." I asked what he meant, and he says: "Those guys got disappointed and hurt and angry with each other and kept on loving each other anyway. They weren't sitting there going: "You're the love of my life. Everything about you is perfect." They just kept coming back and trying the best they could to give each other someone who knew what it was like for them." And then he adds this: "They lost everything in the end, but they were still damn lucky."

Oh Jenny this was beautifully said.....very touching. Doesn't it make you feel so so good?  What a guy.!!! And good for you!!!!

Nellie

[Jenny]

Umm... I broke down in tears, actually.  And yeah, he's a wonderful guy.  He just keeps on coming back and standing right there next to me, no matter what.  I'm damn lucky, and I know it.

[gblady]

Jenny, that is such a touching recap of your husbands reaction to BBM.  What a lucky gal you are.
Would love to hear about further discussions if you have them.....

[MindyM]

I was having the same thoughts as you after my second viewing of the movie last weekend.  When I read the short story before my second viewing, there is a paragraph after the last meeting between Ennis and Jack in which Jack has the flashback to the dozy embrace scene from their first summer on BBM.  He is thinking that this is his favorite moment from that time.  He describes it as a sweet and charming moment, even understanding that Ennis had to come up from behind because he couldn't do it facing him.  Then he is thinking that maybe this was as far as they ever got.  The final words he says in that paragraph are - "Let be, let be".  This continues to puzzle me.  Does anyone know exactly what he meant by that?  Does it mean the same as "let it be"?  Was he letting go of Ennis finally, knowing that he was suffering and would not ever be able to live with him openly?  I too want to know if he thought it was over between them.  I wondered if that was why he was with the neighbor in Texas and told his father that he was bringing him up there.  But somebody here answered that by saying that the fact that he never did bring him up there was because he couldn't let go of Ennis.  There was so much pain in that final scene between them, so much agony and unbearable suffering.  Did he think that he should let go of Ennis to ease his pain?  I want to think that he never gave up on Ennis and died still loving him and holding on to the possibility that they could be together.  I just wondered what some of you think about this, because it has really been bothering me and I can't get it out of my mind.  Maybe I need some peace of mind, too.

I highlighted these to keep my train of thought here.

Let be let be. I may be way off on this but this is what I think. That memory is the sweetest one for Jack. I forget all the words from the short story, but nothing would mar that memory, not even the fact that Ennis would not admit that it was Jack (man) he held. So instead of wishing what was'nt let be let be. Even after that fight, Jack is not happy and very frustrated and hurt, but he know's this is how it is, let be let be. I don't think that Jack could ever quit Ennis. He tried some stuff (the sorta admission that he had an affair going on, wishing he could "quit " Ennis.), but I don't think Jack was yet at the point to call it forever quits. And Ennis's statement of "I can't stand this anymore Jack" was an admission of breaking down. Ennis knew that he could not go on like they had. He could not give up Jack any more than he could give up breathing. I really believe that from that point to the point that they were to meet again in November, that Ennis was willing to change, to what extent?, but to make some change to be more available to Jack. This may be my wishful thinking, but when he made that statement I knew in my heart that Ennis was  going to do somthing to make there situation better. This is the part that tears me to pieces, that makes me cry cry cry. It was to damn late to see what would have happened.

I don't think that Jack would give up on Ennis, not yet (this scene), but I do believe that if things had not changed in thier Nov meeting that Jack probably would at that point end things. But since he died we will never know. Jack did die still loving Ennis. That is sweet.

I hope this helps. We could discuss this over and over. I am glad that there are newer people coming on board, because I am not ready to give up all the discussions, and the sharing of thoughts and feelings.

Thank you for responding to my little obsession here.  You have given me a great deal of comfort.  I hope that Jack was just saying that it was okay, that Ennis gave as much as he could and maybe that was more meaningful to him than anything with someone else.  I wish I thought Ennis would have changed, but I am not so sure, although I want to believe it.  I remember during my first viewing of the movie, when I had no idea what was coming, I kept thinking to myself - say it ain't so, Ennis, change your mind, Ennis, this time you have to change your mind.  It's the only time I found myself questioning what he did or the choices he made.  I wonder if things would have been different if he had gone to see Jack in August, like he begged him to do.  But it is what it is.  What ifs aren't going to change the story.  I appreciate the input here as I sort through all of the swirling emotions and questions and feelings after each viewing of the film.  I do believe in my heart that Jack died loving Ennis.  I guess this is just my way of trying to deal with something too tragic.  I also think that we do tend to forget the time in which this story was set and the place.  Even in the early 1980's I don't think that it would have been okay for gay people to come out in that part of the country, even though it was happening in urban areas like my hometown of NY and my adopted hometown of L.A.  All I know is that I am exhausted after my second viewing.  I think this will be the last week that it will be playing anywhere in my area, but I don't know if I can do it again.  I love seeing Ennis and Jack and I do so love their story, but it does tear me apart to see what happens to them because I wanted both of them to have the best in life and be able to freely experience their love.

[andy]

I believe Ennis's love for his daughters was right up there in his list of priorities. His comment about child support in the showdown scene was as it should have been but I also believe he used it as the only justifiable reason for nor going off with Jack. E's internalized homophobia was humongously real and he knew it and the only acceptable explanation for his reticence that he could present to both J and himself that carried any credibility, was the well being and continued support of his daughters. He may well have been able to move away and set up home with Jack for all anybody else cared but I cant get out of my mind that he just didn't want to live with Jack that way on account of the stigma attached to 2 guys doing such a thing by both himself and as far as he was concerned many of those around him. He still wasn't where he needed to be to accept that he was indeed 'queer'. And never having travelled much further than the handle on the coffee pot, he would have had no point of reference on which to base the idea that just maybe, it would have been alright to set up home together. IMHO.

[Redbrit]

Something interesting just struck me about their first parting. We're used to thinking of Ennis as the practical one - over practical in fact to the point of not be able to escape form his fated choices - while Jack is the dreamer, right? Well, think about the circumstances of their first parting. Firstly, Ennis is clearly reluctant to leave - he has an unrealistic expectation of continuing on - though of course he knows it won't happen. Meanwhile, Jack just gets on with packing up. Jack steals Ennis's shirt as a memento, because he realises they may never meet again. He makes his attempt at arranging to meet up with Ennis the next year and then has to watch him go. Ennis however is clearly in denial by this time and acts kind of emotionally dead to Jack's pleas (He's basically in shock). Only after they part does the full enormity of what he has done, or failed to do, hit him in the guts. The point is that reality and dreams don't easily separate. Yes, Jack is always trying to dream, but because of that he is also always dreaming up practical ways to make his dreams come true. Ennis, trapped in a life without dreams or hope, makes no such plans and repeatedly finds himself out of touch with the people around him.

And the worst of it is - he is so loving. He lives his life in fear of not being accepted for who he is - when everyone who really knows him loves him. Maybe his only real salvation at the end of the film will come from that love - Alma Jr. will never desert him; so maybe he won't end up as the sad, lonely old man who inspired Annie Proulx to write the story in the first place.

And Jenny's hubby got it just right. The two of them never say,'I love you' but in their way they both know it. In fact, I think they kind of know and don't know, if that makes sense. Especially Ennis I think knows the strength of his feelings but can't bring himself to acknowledge that it is love. Jack more likely knows it is love. But even then, it begs the question of why he never says it. I don't think sensitivity to Ennis's feelings is a complete explanation. Jack clearly wants to push things to a head to try to get Ennis to come with him and what better way could there be than to state the obvious and confront Ennis with the reality of his feelings? The trouble is, I think, that their male conditioning is so thorough that even Jack cannot bring himself to say it, even though he probably knows it. We see Ennis's reaction to Jack's visits to Mexico. In part that is no doubt pain - a sense of betrayal and of self-despite: look what I have driven him to. But also this is a sign of his deep fear of gay sexuality. If he doesn't want to think of Jack as attracted to men generally, for reasons other than jealousy, rather because he won't think through the nature of their relationship - I ain't queer - then Jack is denied the use of the one thing that might have broken the log-jam. They can admit to having sex with one another, they can admit they need one another and have feelings for one another, but to admit they love one another would question who and what they are and neither of them are fully capable of doing that. I've been searching for a review - a particularly good one - where the reviewer points out that this film for the first time exposes the psychological cost of the closet. That's what I'm trying to point to here.

[strazeme]

am i alone in thinking that on some level, alma jr. knows? 

god, i love this forum.

garry - i dig it.  we're all in this together, man.



jake

I have this fantasy that Alma, Jr. soon have a baby boy, and they name him Jack

[Redbrit]

Just a quick question - can anybody think of another film (or other artwork) that plunges us so deep into the psyche of its characters?

[andy]

Absolutely not!

[bernadette]

With all due respect, I do not think that Ennis just sent him packing.  This is one of the scenes that keeps flashing back to me, over and over.  It brought up a few things in me.  First, you see the juxtaposition of the characters in the scene, Ennis is in the middle between his girls and Jack.  I remember him standing there and looking at his girls and then at Jack.  The man wants to tear himself into two parts so that he can be with both of them.  One of the reasons that I liked Ennis so much was that he wouldn't turn his back on his children.  I have abandonment issues from childhood that I will not discuss even here, but I can tell you that if he had left those little girls I never would have forgiven him for it.  I loved and respected how he felt about them. I think that, next to Jack, they were the little loves of his life.  Parents sometimes have to sacrifice their own happiness for their children.  You know in that scene that Ennis wants to be with Jack, you can see it in his eyes when he tells Jack how sorry he is.  Everyone thinks Jack is the hero, and I do like Jack myself, but Ennis is the one who got into my heart and soul.  He lives and breathes inside me because there is something deep that he touched.  I am not sure what that is yet, but I know the realization will come in time.  Ennis did the right thing and maybe people here don't like it or understand it, but I do.  If he had left those little girls to go off with Jack, it would have scarred their little souls forever and I know what I am talking about here.  I do love that Jack made it easy for him, as he always did, by not showing his disappointment to Ennis.  It's only when he gets in his truck and drives off that we see him break down.  It hurt me to see that and I did feel his pain.  I felt torn in two myself watching this scene.  It is so unfair that someone has to be hurt.  Wouldn't life be wonderful if we could make everyone happy in our lives and do what we want to do.  But that is not the case, there are hard and difficult choices that have to be made.  I always think about what President Kennedy said, "Life is unfair".  Never more so than in BBM.

As someone who is not unfamiliar with the loss of touch with a parent (they divorced when I was nine, have had poor contact with my father since), I feel with you for your abandonment issue. I still believe that the right thing for Ennis would have been to be with Jack. When I saw this scene, I almost wanted to jump up and slap Ennis: Don't you see that you can have both (your daughters and Jack)?! I know, for Ennis that was unconceivable, but I believe that this was what poor ol' Jack had in mind. I don't think he just wanted to run off with Ennis, leaving everything behind. Maybe they wouldn't settle down right nextdoor, but it would be in reach for the girls (just speculation from my side, of course). But back to the subject: I'm not sure the choice Ennis made was to the best of his daughters, I think it pains Alma a lot to see him in such a state. I have only seen the movie once, but I got a distinct feeling that Alma knew, she wanted her father to be happy, and I feel that she would have encouraged him to be with Jack had she had the opportunity. As for sacrifices: parents do indeed have to give up certain things, but I believe that throwing away your own happiness will only bring you and the ones near you into trouble. It is difficult for me to see how you can be a good rolemodel for your child in such a state, and how you can find the energy to be supportive. Hell, Ennis almost refused to go to his own daughter's wedding! (luckily he took to his mind though) Please don't mistake this for egoism, but I believe that by taking care of your own happiness you have so much more to offer to the people around you. And thank God, this forum is blessed with so many nice people, all the emotional moments, it is truly a source of comfort. And happy moments.  Please keep up the good work, I so appreciate reading what other people think of, and get out of, this gem of a movie.
Gary in Belgium

Hi, I guess I've got to enter this conversation. I'm with Gary that Ennis should have decided to be with Jack, he could have done that and been with his kids. He didn't do it because of fear, not so much about wanting to leave his girls. I think he used them as an excuse in his mind, and I too love that he loved them so much. But it wasn't that. My two cents, and clearly this is all my filter, But, I think at least part of Ennis's problem was that he was afraid of losing Jack, so he was afraid to completely let him in, obviously fear of being found out was a part of all this, but I don't think it was all. My mother died when I was a baby (try that for abandonment issues) and I see so much of those issues in Ennis (how Annie and Ang and everyone got all that is absolutely amazing). I was raised by an Ennis. And I still think he could have had both and should have. And ultimately, his girls would have been happy for him, Alma at least, understood and would have worried less about him.

[hayek_uk]

Okay, guys, I need to share this.  I finally got my husband of 21 years to come see this movie with me.  We went to an afternoon showing: maybe 8 other people in the theater.  He reached over and held my hand from the final argument all the way to the end.  This was our conversation after we left the theater:

Me:  How did you like it?

Him: It was an excellent movie.  I'm glad I saw it.

Me: You didn't think it dragged or was too slow?

Him:  Not at all.  I thought the pacing was great.

Me:  Didn't you think Heath Ledger was terrific?

Him:  I thought they both were terrific.

We're silent for a minute.  I figured okay, I guess that's where we're going to leave it.  Then he turns to me and says:  "I think that's the first big movie I've seen in a long time where they got it right about how love is."  I asked what he meant, and he says: "Those guys got disappointed and hurt and angry with each other and kept on loving each other anyway.  They weren't sitting there going: "You're the love of my life.  Everything about you is perfect."  They just kept coming back and trying the best they could to give each other someone who knew what it was like for them."  And then he adds this:  "They lost everything in the end, but they were still damn lucky."

Lovely. Just lovely. I'm really moved and happy.

And it's amazing to hear positive words and appreciation from someone with no established "investment" in liking the movie, or no pre-exitent reason to identify with its characters. It's like it feels kinda validating (though of course don't need to have that).

Another thing that strikes me as really fine about the way your husband saw things (apart from the whole reach of his appreciation, which was so able to feel with Jack and Ennis) is that he didn't get hung up on the physical stuff, the kissing or fucking, which seems so often to be where even the most positive straight men's responses end up.

Hey, they WERE damn lucky. Jack and Ennis made it across the line, onto the side where nothing could ever take away what they had experienced, whatever happened.

[Mejack]

There's no one in my life that I can talk to, and I'm hurting so bad. I can hardly bring myself to post this publicly, but I have to say it to someone, and I'm so thankful you guys are here.

BBM brought back all those memories that had been put away for so many years;memories that had begun to fade with time. Then suddenly I could think of nothing else and everything was vivid in my mind again.

My search for Billy has ended.  This afternoon I received confirmation that he passed away several years ago.  I just can't hardly stand it.  There's so much I wanted to say to him.  I feel so utterly alone now.  I've never had to grieve before. 

For several weeks I've had the feeling that he might be gone because my search wouldn't turn up anything, nothing.  Last week I drove 650 miles round trip to his high school in Georgia, just trying to find his picture in an old yearbook.  When I got there I found the yearbooks for those years were missing.

Who would have guessed that the school librarian would be the key.  When I told her Billy's name, she said she thought he might be the grandfather of one of the students at the school. She offered to bring in the student, but I told her I didn't think it would be proper for me to question a student.  She said she would find out and call me.  The call came this morning. 

The child said her grandmother (Billy's wife Ruth) lives in Atlanta, and there was a phone number.  I called Ruth a little while ago.  She was very cordial, remembered me from years ago, and invited me to come visit.  At first I declined, but she insisted, so I go to Atlanta next week.

Meanwhile the tears won't stop.  My wife noticed this afternoon but I just shrugged it off.  She knows nothing of Billy.  How do you explain to your wife that you're going out of town to meet another woman who was the wife of the man you've loved for fifty years? 

And then there's Ruth.  Is she going to see it in my face?  OMG, this is probably a big mistake, but if I don't make the trip, I'll never know what I must know.

Paul Mejack

[bernadette]

Okay, guys, I need to share this.  I finally got my husband of 21 years to come see this movie with me.  We went to an afternoon showing: maybe 8 other people in the theater.  He reached over and held my hand from the final argument all the way to the end.  This was our conversation after we left the theater:

Me:  How did you like it?

Him: It was an excellent movie.  I'm glad I saw it.

Me: You didn't think it dragged or was too slow?

Him:  Not at all.  I thought the pacing was great.

Me:  Didn't you think Heath Ledger was terrific?

Him:  I thought they both were terrific.

We're silent for a minute.  I figured okay, I guess that's where we're going to leave it.  Then he turns to me and says:  "I think that's the first big movie I've seen in a long time where they got it right about how love is."  I asked what he meant, and he says: "Those guys got disappointed and hurt and angry with each other and kept on loving each other anyway.  They weren't sitting there going: "You're the love of my life.  Everything about you is perfect."  They just kept coming back and trying the best they could to give each other someone who knew what it was like for them."  And then he adds this:  "They lost everything in the end, but they were still damn lucky."

I think your husband got it right! They loved each other anyway. How often do you hear people say things like 'he/she has issues I just don't want to deal with'. I think that's the thing with Ennis and Jack, they are reminding us what the real thing is.