How Brokeback affected me

[BayCityJohn]

i'd rather be the person i am today, with the body of heath ledger.  then i'd be going after jake gyllenhaal !!!

 

Yes that was my point. I used to have his body

[jakelikethat]

oh, mindy - what you say is so true.  *sigh*   it's one of the things about ennis that is kind of a double-edged sword.  you feel so badly for jack, but ennis is doing the right thing by his children and that is something to be admired.  to sacrifice his (and jack's) personal happiness for the sake of his girls, shows ennis as the "rock" of the story (ennis = earth, jack = fire)

the other scene which cuts me to the quick is the thankgiving dinner, when ennis and alma fight and ennis storms out.  his girls come running out of the house, saying "bye daddy..."  because even though he and their mom are fighting, even though he's not with her anymore, even though they have a new home and a new "dad" - ennis is still their daddy and they love him and can't understand why he has to leave without saying goodbye to them.

*sigh*  too many bad memories for me there, in that scene.

[JohnJay]

With all due respect, I do not think that Ennis just sent him packing.  This is one of the scenes that keeps flashing back to me, over and over.  It brought up a few things in me.  First, you see the juxtaposition of the characters in the scene, Ennis is in the middle between his girls and Jack.  I remember him standing there and looking at his girls and then at Jack.  The man wants to tear himself into two parts so that he can be with both of them.  One of the reasons that I liked Ennis so much was that he wouldn't turn his back on his children.  I have abandonment issues from childhood that I will not discuss even here, but I can tell you that if he had left those little girls I never would have forgiven him for it.  I loved and respected how he felt about them. I think that, next to Jack, they were the little loves of his life.  Parents sometimes have to sacrifice their own happiness for their children.  You know in that scene that Ennis wants to be with Jack, you can see it in his eyes when he tells Jack how sorry he is.  Everyone thinks Jack is the hero, and I do like Jack myself, but Ennis is the one who got into my heart and soul.  He lives and breathes inside me because there is something deep that he touched.  I am not sure what that is yet, but I know the realization will come in time.  Ennis did the right thing and maybe people here don't like it or understand it, but I do.  If he had left those little girls to go off with Jack, it would have scarred their little souls forever and I know what I am talking about here.  I do love that Jack made it easy for him, as he always did, by not showing his disappointment to Ennis.  It's only when he gets in his truck and drives off that we see him break down.  It hurt me to see that and I did feel his pain.  I felt torn in two myself watching this scene.  It is so unfair that someone has to be hurt.  Wouldn't life be wonderful if we could make everyone happy in our lives and do what we want to do.  But that is not the case, there are hard and difficult choices that have to be made.  I always think about what President Kennedy said, "Life is unfair".  Never more so than in BBM.

Of course, Mindy... you are correct!  Still, I don't know why Ennis didn't at least offer Jack to stay and visit (i.e., platonically) while he had the kids. After all... if Jack & Ennis did ever get together... both their kids eventually would be knowing "Uncle Jack" and "Uncle Ennis", so why not let Jack into his life a bit then?  You know... let's all  go out to Denny's for breakfast or something?! 

Oh, right!  His ex-wife knew about "Them", so having Jack around would probably jeopardize his visitation rights.  Never mind.  My bad for beng a bit too progressive for their generation.

[MindyM]

oh, mindy - what you say is so true.  *sigh*   it's one of the things about ennis that is kind of a double-edged sword.  you feel so badly for jack, but ennis is doing the right thing by his children and that is something to be admired.  to sacrifice his (and jack's) personal happiness for the sake of his girls, shows ennis as the "rock" of the story (ennis = earth, jack = fire)

the other scene which cuts me to the quick is the thankgiving dinner, when ennis and alma fight and ennis storms out.  his girls come running out of the house, saying "bye daddy..."  because even though he and their mom are fighting, even though he's not with her anymore, even though they have a new home and a new "dad" - ennis is still their daddy and they love him and can't understand why he has to leave without saying goodbye to them.

*sigh*  too many bad memories for me there, in that scene.

Thanks for understanding.  This movie has created such an upheaval in me that sometimes I wonder if what I write here makes any sense at all.  By the way, I referred to you as one of the guys I think the other day.  I am so sorry, that was my mistake.  I didn't see the little gender sign, so I hope that I didn't offend you.

Another scene which gave me a slight twinge was the one in which Ennis is bringing Alma Jr back from a visit with him and she starts telling him about the problems she is experiencing at home.  I always felt that she loved her father and was closer to him than her mother.  When she asks him if she can come to live with him and he tries to explain to her that it wouldn't be a good idea, I just found myself wondering if he was afraid that if she came to live with him she would find out the truth about him and Jack just like her mother did.  It just tweaked my heart because I wanted him to have someone in his life.  Especially when she tells him how she could do lots of things for him around the house.  She really wanted to take care of her daddy. 

You know, every night before I fall asleep, I find myself replaying a scene between Ennis and Jack, usually on BBM, something that brings a smile to my face.  These two have really become a part of my life.

[danac]

[ John that was the aftermath of the scene when he goes to see Ennis after he finds out about the divorce hoping they can finally be together and Ennis sends him packing.
Jake pulled that scene off really well you can literally feel his pain.

With all due respect, I do not think that Ennis just sent him packing. 

Right, Mindy...he didn't send him packing. But, he had his little girls - and the story makes clear that his girls were a safe place for Ennis; he could them openly with no reprisal. And, he had already made clear to Jack his fear of " this thing grabs hold of us again...at the wrong place, at the wrong time..." so he couldn't trust himself to include on that weekend - fearing his passion for Jack would show and expose him to the girls.

[danac]

I think I posted this but it failed :-[

Ennis had already made clear to Jack his fear about " this thing grabs hold of us again, at the wrong place, at the wrong time..."
He wouldn't have trusted himself with Jack around the girls for fear he would expose his passion for Jack to them.
The only way he felt safe to be around Jack was " way the hell out in the back of nowhere."

[danac]

Sorry for the repeat, guys!

[jakelikethat]

mindy:  you can call me "one of the guys", it's cool and i'm used to it.  i've been "one of the guys" my whole life!    now, if i could only get.... nevermind.

danac:  nice to see you here, friend.  *flirt*

[heartbreaker]

With all due respect, I do not think that Ennis just sent him packing.  This is one of the scenes that keeps flashing back to me, over and over.  It brought up a few things in me.  First, you see the juxtaposition of the characters in the scene, Ennis is in the middle between his girls and Jack.  I remember him standing there and looking at his girls and then at Jack.  The man wants to tear himself into two parts so that he can be with both of them.  One of the reasons that I liked Ennis so much was that he wouldn't turn his back on his children.  I have abandonment issues from childhood that I will not discuss even here, but I can tell you that if he had left those little girls I never would have forgiven him for it.  I loved and respected how he felt about them. I think that, next to Jack, they were the little loves of his life.  Parents sometimes have to sacrifice their own happiness for their children.  You know in that scene that Ennis wants to be with Jack, you can see it in his eyes when he tells Jack how sorry he is.  Everyone thinks Jack is the hero, and I do like Jack myself, but Ennis is the one who got into my heart and soul.  He lives and breathes inside me because there is something deep that he touched.  I am not sure what that is yet, but I know the realization will come in time.  Ennis did the right thing and maybe people here don't like it or understand it, but I do.  If he had left those little girls to go off with Jack, it would have scarred their little souls forever and I know what I am talking about here.  I do love that Jack made it easy for him, as he always did, by not showing his disappointment to Ennis.  It's only when he gets in his truck and drives off that we see him break down.  It hurt me to see that and I did feel his pain.  I felt torn in two myself watching this scene.  It is so unfair that someone has to be hurt.  Wouldn't life be wonderful if we could make everyone happy in our lives and do what we want to do.  But that is not the case, there are hard and difficult choices that have to be made.  I always think about what President Kennedy said, "Life is unfair".  Never more so than in BBM.

Of course, Mindy... you are correct!  Still, I don't know why Ennis didn't at least offer Jack to stay and visit (i.e., platonically) while he had the kids. After all... if Jack & Ennis did ever get together... both their kids eventually would be knowing "Uncle Jack" and "Uncle Ennis", so why not let Jack into his life a bit then?  You know... let's all  go out to Denny's for breakfast or something?! 

Oh, right!  His ex-wife knew about "Them", so having Jack around would probably jeopardize his visitation rights.  Never mind.  My bad for beng a bit too progressive for their generation.

I think some have been too progressive for that generation.  Even though we can see what's going on and understand it all I don't think Jack nor Ennis fully knew what was happening to them.  They were brought up to shun that type of thing.  I am surprised that they were together as much as they were considering.  Throughout the entire movie with all the angst and fear and repression as well as passion, secrecy and audacity, Neither Jack nor Ennis ever said the words, "I LOVE YOU".  Never were they uttered in the entire film.  This tells me that either what they were feeling was still very internalized that they didn't know that they actually loved each other OR they were deathly afraid of admitting it.

[Redbrit]

i'd rather be the person i am today, with the body of heath ledger.  then i'd be going after jake gyllenhaal !!!

 

Hmm - straight woman fantasises about being a straight man so that she could pursue another straight man in the hope of a gay relationship. Yup - Brokeback Mountain is changing people alright.

[Bethie]

I was having the same thoughts as you after my second viewing of the movie last weekend.  When I read the short story before my second viewing, there is a paragraph after the last meeting between Ennis and Jack in which Jack has the flashback to the dozy embrace scene from their first summer on BBM.  He is thinking that this is his favorite moment from that time.  He describes it as a sweet and charming moment, even understanding that Ennis had to come up from behind because he couldn't do it facing him.  Then he is thinking that maybe this was as far as they ever got.  The final words he says in that paragraph are - "Let be, let be".  This continues to puzzle me.  Does anyone know exactly what he meant by that?  Does it mean the same as "let it be"?  Was he letting go of Ennis finally, knowing that he was suffering and would not ever be able to live with him openly?  I too want to know if he thought it was over between them.  I wondered if that was why he was with the neighbor in Texas and told his father that he was bringing him up there.  But somebody here answered that by saying that the fact that he never did bring him up there was because he couldn't let go of Ennis.  There was so much pain in that final scene between them, so much agony and unbearable suffering.  Did he think that he should let go of Ennis to ease his pain?  I want to think that he never gave up on Ennis and died still loving him and holding on to the possibility that they could be together.  I just wondered what some of you think about this, because it has really been bothering me and I can't get it out of my mind.  Maybe I need some peace of mind, too.

I highlighted these to keep my train of thought here.

Let be let be. I may be way off on this but this is what I think. That memory is the sweetest one for Jack. I forget all the words from the short story, but nothing would mar that memory, not even the fact that Ennis would not admit that it was Jack (man) he held. So instead of wishing what was'nt let be let be. Even after that fight, Jack is not happy and very frustrated and hurt, but he know's this is how it is, let be let be. I don't think that Jack could ever quit Ennis. He tried some stuff (the sorta admission that he had an affair going on, wishing he could "quit " Ennis.), but I don't think Jack was yet at the point to call it forever quits. And Ennis's statement of "I can't stand this anymore Jack" was an admission of breaking down. Ennis knew that he could not go on like they had. He could not give up Jack any more than he could give up breathing. I really believe that from that point to the point that they were to meet again in November, that Ennis was willing to change, to what extent?, but to make some change to be more available to Jack. This may be my wishful thinking, but when he made that statement I knew in my heart that Ennis was  going to do somthing to make there situation better. This is the part that tears me to pieces, that makes me cry cry cry. It was to damn late to see what would have happened.

I don't think that Jack would give up on Ennis, not yet (this scene), but I do believe that if things had not changed in thier Nov meeting that Jack probably would at that point end things. But since he died we will never know. Jack did die still loving Ennis. That is sweet.

I hope this helps. We could discuss this over and over. I am glad that there are newer people coming on board, because I am not ready to give up all the discussions, and the sharing of thoughts and feelings.

[DaveinPhilly]

i'd rather be the person i am today, with the body of heath ledger.  then i'd be going after jake gyllenhaal !!!

 

Hmm - straight woman fantasises about being a straight man so that she could pursue another straight man in the hope of a gay relationship. Yup - Brokeback Mountain is changing people alright.

Yup, and "whiskey will flow in the streams....

[jakelikethat]

redbrit, that is way too funny.   it's not easy being green!

you do realize that if i were "wearing" heath's body, he wouldn't be straight.  and jake would be in big trouble. 

furthermore, if i'm a straight woman, why do i have this appalling tendency to flirt with chicks??



jake

[Garry_LH]

"I think some have been too progressive for that generation.  Even though we can see what's going on and understand it all I don't think Jack nor Ennis fully knew what was happening to them.  They were brought up to shun that type of thing.  I am surprised that they were together as much as they were considering.  Throughout the entire movie with all the angst and fear and repression as well as passion, secrecy and audacity, Neither Jack nor Ennis ever said the words, "I LOVE YOU".  Never were they uttered in the entire film.  This tells me that either what they were feeling was still very internalized that they didn't know that they actually loved each other OR they were deathly afraid of admitting it."

I believe with all my heart Jack was capable of saying I Love You. It was his understanding of how deeply Ennis had the awareness of his own feelings buried, that kept Jack from saying those words. That last evening they were together setting around the camp fire, Jack came as close as he could to saying those three words. 'Sometimes I miss you so much...' hoping that maybe just once Ennis could put into some kind of words what he felt for Jack. Maybe not I love you, but at least 'Bud, I sure know what you mean.' Just that much from Ennis, and perhaps Ennis sensed this himself, and Jack would have moved back to Wyoming. He might have been living back up at Lighting Flats in his own cabin. But, Jack would have made sure he was there for Ennis as much as he could be. Such are the Jacks of this world.
Garry

[danac]

furthermore, if i'm a straight woman, why do i have this appalling tendency to flirt with chicks??



jake

Isn't one of the lessons of BBM that we should eliminate the boxes and labels...like straight and gay...and allow our inate sensuality to dictate our responses to other human beings?