How Brokeback affected me

[Erik]

I would rather say I admired him though. He is so steadfast in love that he basically sacrifice everything to protect his lover, and to maintain his relationship. That's a strength that a lot of people cannot even hope to emulate.

So, yes I admired him a lot. And I don't really feel sorry for him either. He found the true love of his life! How many of us can say that? How many people out there in the world can say that?

Yes but i wish he could have seen the fruits of his steadfast behaviour a little more...

U know, what i also have, maybe i'm not alone in this, since the movie i even more then ever before realize the unimportance of careers and status and so on...

"To love and know another human being is the root of all wisdom" (Brideshead revisited)

[DaveinPhilly]

I would rather say I admired him though. He is so steadfast in love that he basically sacrifice everything to protect his lover, and to maintain his relationship. That's a strength that a lot of people cannot even hope to emulate.

So, yes I admired him a lot. And I don't really feel sorry for him either. He found the true love of his life! How many of us can say that? How many people out there in the world can say that?

Yes but i wish he could have seen the fruits of his steadfast behaviour a little more...

U know, what i also have, maybe i'm not alone in this, since the movie i even more then ever before realize the unimportance of careers and status and so on...

"To love and know another human being is the root of all wisdom" (Brideshead revisited)

I think it's not so much careers and status as being able to survive. Ennis came from parents who knew the great depression and they struggled to survive, hence his own constant fears about making a living which stood in his way of being free enough to take up Jack's proposal of a "little cow and calf operation". Still Ennis' fear of his homosexuality would have prevented him from making that move anyway, 'til he finally lost the man he loved.

[hayek_uk]

I would rather say I admired him though. He is so steadfast in love that he basically sacrifice everything to protect his lover, and to maintain his relationship. That's a strength that a lot of people cannot even hope to emulate.

So, yes I admired him a lot. And I don't really feel sorry for him either. He found the true love of his life! How many of us can say that? How many people out there in the world can say that?

Yes but i wish he could have seen the fruits of his steadfast behaviour a little more...

U know, what i also have, maybe i'm not alone in this, since the movie i even more then ever before realize the unimportance of careers and status and so on...

"To love and know another human being is the root of all wisdom" (Brideshead revisited)

I guess I've said something like this before, but the compression of time between the reunion and the final meeting, and the time devoted to married life, means we don't see much of the happy times Jack and Ennis spent together -- three (and sometimes four) times a year for a week at a time. In the final meeting when JACK says "You used to come away easy. Now it's like seein' the Pope" it's the second half of the sentence that resonates with the scene, and Jack's anger. But the first half sounds blissful - "You used to come away easy". You bet!

The screenplay also has three short scenes, one after the other [between Alma/Ennis - "You forgettin' somethin'") and Jack/Bobby on the tractor] that were omitted from the movie (I don't know if they were filmed and ended up on the editing room floor, or if they were "cut" before that):

(1)           
               Fine campsite in the mountains.

               JACK's late model clean-as-a-pin pickup truck and horse trailer.

               TWO HORSES tethered nearby.

               ENNIS in his old pickup truck pulls up to a campsite.

               He can see in his headlights that JAck has already set up camp.

               Toots the horn. Smiles.

               JACK comes out of the tent,
               the intense pleasure of being with Ennis all over his face.


(2)           
               Campsite. Night.

               ENNIS: Look what I brought.

                    Offers a small brown paper bag. JACK weighs it in his hands, opens it:
                    a couple of cans of beans.

               JACK: Beans

               ENNIS: Gonna fix 'em just the way I used to.

                    Jack smiles.
             

(3) 
               ENNIS and JACK are horseback, trotting across a high meadow. JACK fiddles with his rope.
               Ropes a sagebrush, then throws it at a rabbit.

               JACK
               Wish we'd jump a coyote. I'd love to rope a coyote.

               ENNIS (skeptical of Jack's prowess with the lariat)
               I doubt I'll live to see that miracle

               They laugh.

[All4one]

.
The only thing which I have remembered is the way Capote used Perry. The hedonistic, consumeristic, uncommitting, voyeristic side of Capote.
Capote did not even bother to go into the trouble of finding a lawyer once he had what he wanted from Perry (a first person recontre of the crime) - he stopped seeing the two convicts in fact - maybe he thought it was useless, and actually I don't care what he thought. He said he "loved" Perry to his research assistant, but who coul use a love like that?

Your comment reminds me of the ( cautionary ) quote by Joan Didion: "Writers are always selling somebody out.”

[jonas]

Well I usually prefer subtittles because dubbed overs lose so much of the characters in the process. If you can't hear Ennis's voice (well Heath's) and literally hear the anguish with which every word is dragged from his lips you would have missed out on the greatest part of what makes BBM and defines the character and person of Ennis Del mar. I hope someday you will get to watch the DVD in English with subtitles and then you will understand exactly what I am saying.

I always watch a French movie, in french and German in German, if you lose the actors voice you lose the character he was trying to create. I am yet to understand why voice overs are done. It is not just Germany, I lived in Budapest for a while and the Hungarians do the same thing . I Saw "Goodbye Lenin" and even though my German is virtually none existent I still prefered watching it in German with English susbtittles. I can't imagine how horrible it would be watch with an English voice over probably would make no sense at all.

For some movie's it doesn't matter too much. But with BBM, I truly do not believe it is possible to get this movie without the vocals. The power in this movie is not what is said but how It is said and everything in between that was never said.
My advice; get the DVD!

I cannot agree more, brokaholic. When I first saw BBM it was in Spanish. I left the theater almost unmoved, even though I had read the short story long ago and had seen countless times the trailer. I shed some tears, but nothing in comparison to Million Dollar Baby, for instance. Later on I got a pirate copy of BBM in English (don't worry, I'm going to buy several copies of the DVD whenever they start selling it here, for me and as a gift for many people I love) and have been able to watch it at home alone... It was like something had hit my guts and I couldn't stop crying. Then I asked myself 'what's going on here? Isn't it the same movie, or what?'

The first time I had missed all the drama in Ennis/Heath's voice. When dubbed he seemed even smart and witty! A shame. Many people around here didn't understand Heath being nominated for the Oscars and I would say that the equation here is unbalanced toward Jack/Jake, whose dubbing was near perfect. Almost every fan of BBM here pays much more attention to Jack than they do to Ennis. Just because of the horrific dubbing. It's no fair. I checked the theaters in my area (Basque Country), but I was unable to find any screen with it in O.V.

One other reason to be looking forward to get the DVD is that there will be the original subtitles in English and we will know for certain wether it is Ennis or Jake who actually says 'I'm sorry' in the 2nd tent scene. I've seen it too many times and still doubtful...

I'd like to join the discussion about dubbed versions of BBM.

 I saw a spanish sub-titled version of BBM and I must say that the subtitles suck!!!, people who don't understand english miss about 30% of the real dialogue and besides they completely distort some of the phrases. So, at least when they dub the movie they try to keep the dialogue but Basqueboy is right about the loss of "character" in the voices. A few days ago I saw the german trailer and the voices are so different that you don't seem to recognize the character's "spirit", besides, a german girl told me that they speak "high german", that means, standard german so their "cowboy" drawl is lost.

[paintedshoes]

JohnJay,
"Anyway... thank you all for convincing me not to just wait for the DVD, and to go see BBM in the theater before it was too late. You all were so right!"

Dear one, I am sooo glad we were able to convince you to see it on the big screen.  Despite, or maybe because, of the pain that you felt, this film and the emotions it kindled in you will last for the rest of your life.  And this can only be a very good thing.  How many people have seen this film and not been touched and changed by it?  How sad for them that they did not experience the life-altering joy that we here have felt.  I am so grateful for this film.  I'll NEVER go back to being the person I was before.

[danac]

I wonder, what were his feelings after the last meeting, did he in some way say goodbye to Ennis? Was the relationship in his eyes over? I mean, he said he could not go on like this.. Did he die, thinking that he and Ennis were not together anymore? Did he die so sad?

No, Erik...he died knowing that Ennis loved him...Ennis proved that to him with the jealous outbreak about Mexico and the final, tearful collapse.
Jack told his father he was going to bring another guy up to the ranch...but he never did it...because, in my mind, he would never have been able to refuse Ennis...he would never not have been there when Ennis sent for him - "the short fucking leash you keep me on."
Just my interpretation.
It keeps me from going out of mind!

[Erik]

No, Erik...he died knowing that Ennis loved him...Ennis proved that to him with the jealous outbreak about Mexico and the final, tearful collapse.
Jack told his father he was going to bring another guy up to the ranch...but he never did it...because, in my mind, he would never have been able to refuse Ennis...he would never not have been there when Ennis sent for him - "the short fucking leash you keep me on."
Just my interpretation.
It keeps me from going out of mind!

I hope so, but why then did he say to his father that he would bring somebody? I mean, his father of all people.. does that not mean he was serious about this guy??? And his last wish with the ashes on Brokeback, what does this mean, probably he made his will years earlier...

I personally think he loved Ennis so much but at the same time wanted to move on because he knew he and Ennis would never live together. So he choose to live as a gay man. He needed love and tenderness and most of all, he needed to be needed, and all that by somebody who was there all the time.. So maybe he considered that it might be better to have a friend close to him than a great unreachable love.. After all, he was getting older and feeling lonely. What did Ennis offer him? Just these few weekends a year. You cannot live on romance alone, you also need something more steady.. But this does not mean that Ennis was not the love of his life...

This poor Jack, 20 years of waiting... who would do that? what a hero... Only his mother understood

[jonas]

             

(3) 
               ENNIS and JACK are horseback, trotting across a high meadow. JACK fiddles with his rope.
               Ropes a sagebrush, then throws it at a rabbit.

               JACK
               Wish we'd jump a coyote. I'd love to rope a coyote.

               ENNIS (skeptical of Jack's prowess with the lariat)
               I doubt I'll live to see that miracle

               They laugh.

Actually this last scene was included in the movie but it's a bit different, they're both riding their horses and Jack says "I''d love to rope a coyote" and Ennis says something like "I'd like to see that"

[danac]

No, Erik...he died knowing that Ennis loved him...

I hope so, but why then did he say to his father that he would bring somebody? I mean, his father of all people.. does that not mean he was serious about this guy??? And his last wish with the ashes on Brokeback, what does this mean, probably he made his will years earlier...

I personally think he loved Ennis so much but at the same time wanted to move on because he knew he and Ennis would never live together. 

Another take could be this: he knew how tortured Ennis was by a) the fact that he loved a man and b) that he could not overcome his fear and live with Jack ( Ennis says at the end " I can't stand this anymore, Jack."
Sooo, maybe in a totally unselfish move, Jack was going to let Ennis go - thinking that would give Ennis some peace.

[MindyM]

The more thsi movie sinks in, the more i feel sorry for Jack.. He knew wha the wanted but did not get anything, not even his last wish was granted him.. about the ashes..

I wonder, what were his feelings after the last meeting, did he in some way say goodbye to Ennis? Was the relationship in his eyes over? I mean, he said he could not go on like this.. Did he die, thinking that he and Ennis were not together anymore? Did he die so sad?

I was having the same thoughts as you after my second viewing of the movie last weekend.  When I read the short story before my second viewing, there is a paragraph after the last meeting between Ennis and Jack in which Jack has the flashback to the dozy embrace scene from their first summer on BBM.  He is thinking that this is his favorite moment from that time.  He describes it as a sweet and charming moment, even understanding that Ennis had to come up from behind because he couldn't do it facing him.  Then he is thinking that maybe this was as far as they ever got.  The final words he says in that paragraph are - "Let be, let be".  This continues to puzzle me.  Does anyone know exactly what he meant by that?  Does it mean the same as "let it be"?  Was he letting go of Ennis finally, knowing that he was suffering and would not ever be able to live with him openly?  I too want to know if he thought it was over between them.  I wondered if that was why he was with the neighbor in Texas and told his father that he was bringing him up there.  But somebody here answered that by saying that the fact that he never did bring him up there was because he couldn't let go of Ennis.  There was so much pain in that final scene between them, so much agony and unbearable suffering.  Did he think that he should let go of Ennis to ease his pain?  I want to think that he never gave up on Ennis and died still loving him and holding on to the possibility that they could be together.  I just wondered what some of you think about this, because it has really been bothering me and I can't get it out of my mind.  Maybe I need some peace of mind, too.

[Redbrit]

The more thsi movie sinks in, the more i feel sorry for Jack.. He knew wha the wanted but did not get anything, not even his last wish was granted him.. about the ashes..

I wonder, what were his feelings after the last meeting, did he in some way say goodbye to Ennis? Was the relationship in his eyes over? I mean, he said he could not go on like this.. Did he die, thinking that he and Ennis were not together anymore? Did he die so sad?

As to the ashes, I'm sort of thinking that Jack's mother has more in mind for the return visit she offers Ennis than just a slice of cherry cake. She strikes me a little like my grandmother. I should say in all fairness my grandfather was never the monster that Jack's father is - but he was very right-wing and pretty domineering. Well, every election he would say to my Nan,'You know who you're going to vote for, don't you?' and my Nan would say,'Yes dear' - meaning, as she told us, yes - I know you expect me to vote Tory and yes I'm going to vote Labour this time like I always have. Women have ways around these things.

We can only guess at Jack's feelings toward the end. He didn't strike me as a quitter. He found ways to get on with his life as best he could, but always held out for Ennis, and I suspect he always would have unless he found someone else he could care for as much, which would always be a long shot. He invested so much of himself in Ennis - Ennis was part of him and I think that would be very difficult to quit: as Jack himself said. Jack also struck me as a romantic - his dreams of rodeo glory and the cowboy image, his dreams of a life with Ennis - all the stuff that neither Lureen or Ennis really took seriously were real for Jack - he really meant them: as they both realise too late - Lureen when she realises that Brokeback Mountain exists (this casts her muffled sob in the telephone conversation in a new light) and Ennis on discovering the shirts. Dare to dream - that was Jack's credo - things can be better and we have to try. Ennis and Lureen were so crushed they couldn't believe like Jack. When they realise that some of Jack's 'fantasies' are real, physical things - a mountain, a pair of shirts - the emptiness of their own lives and the hole left by the one among them who really lived and dared to dream is what leaves them with a greater emptiness. Maybe this also explains why Jack appears not to react so badly to coming down off the mountain. For him, his continuing relationship with Ennis is not in question - he dreams it, so it can be. We don't know what happens to Lureen, but we do know that Ennis learns this lesson and dreams of happiness for his daughter and continues to dream his happiness with Jack. The lesson? - It is dreamers who live in the real world and those who dare not dream who never really live. This is instinctively understood by the best artists - hence the beautiful realisation of the film by Lee, McMurtry, Ossana, Ledger, Gyllenhaal, Williams and Hathaway.

This also makes me feel a little less sad about Jack. You see - he lived as he saw fit - always - he was so damned brave - he lost his life, but he never gave in. In fact, he's a latterday Carmen - 'I live and die, Carmen!'. Interestingly, when it was first performed, Carmen was considered immoral; there had been great difficulties in getting it made, including potential leading ladies pulling out due to the subject-matter and it failed to gain critical acclaim for much the same reasons until long after it came out. Some things never change... Of course, it is now recognised as one of the greatest Operas ever written and has a secure, permanent place in the repertoire. I wonder what the critics' favourite Opera was in 1875? Any art historians out there?

[danac]

. Heath Ledger built his character almost from scratch. I didn't think he would be able to do it but he blew me away. (and i wouldn't mind returning the favor
DaveinPhilly

That cracked me up, Dave! What a relief from the sobbing!!!

[1224butternut]

One feature of great art is the ability to present a concrete form with elements that are open to interpretation and that can only be answered in our own hearts.  The continuing discussion here about these elements is testament to the great art of this film.  We just never see anything on film that stimulates such discussion and exploration of our own feelings in the context of the film as BBM has.  The longer we explore this film, the more it withstands our scrutiny and stimulates more discussion.  It becomes more amazing as time goes by.  Truly great film making.  The best I have seen in my life...maybe ever.

[BayCityJohn]

. Heath Ledger built his character almost from scratch. I didn't think he would be able to do it but he blew me away. (and i wouldn't mind returning the favor
DaveinPhilly

That cracked me up, Dave! What a relief from the sobbing!!!

Thanks Danac!  that was my post that Dave was quoting.