How Brokeback affected me

[alma]

So, I saw another "best film" nominee (and best actor Oscar winner) last night. I went to Capote, and did not enjoy it at all.

I didn't go with any competitive outlook, or intending to make comparison with BBM. Indeed, I was looking forward to it, anticipating something of real quality. But it seemed neither beautiful, nor thought-provoking, nor involving, nor entertaining. I simply found it BORING.

Forgive the following American gush of shared enthusiasm: YES! I was bored too. That's what I posted over on the Oscar threads aeons ago. Boring. Worse for me, when I saw that film, BBM was on the screen next door and I wondered if that was why I felt so antsy... But my husband concurred with my feelings.

The character of Capote himself I found not only very unsympathetic, but also uninteresting. His life and art as portrayed in the film were matters of no concern to me.

EXACTLY. Now my sister who enjoyed Capote's writing found the movie riveting. But I haven't read him so all I had to go on was the movie itself. I was bored. I hate the feeling that I'm supposed to appreciate the movie as "great art" when I am tapping my toes, chewing gum and fidgeting in my seat the whole time.

On the main “issue” that has been discussed a lot, I found PSH’s performance self-evidently accomplished (and very long), but not at all outstanding even among his own oeuvre. In the way of these things, I accept that they won’t give an Oscar to a 25-year old actor, so Heath L. had no chance no matter what. But on the merits, his portrayal of Ennis was, in my view, so far superior to PSH in every way, technically and intuitively. There was really no competition. I do really find it hard to understand how Hoffman took every single award. There must be something I’m missing, that everyone rates it so highly – but my view is that it is a performance that will be quickly forgotten. I’m sure I have already forgotten most of it.

The only way I can rationalize it is that PSH was due AND that he is not typically a leading male. He is almost always a supporting actor in a character role. This might be their one chance to honor his oeuvre.

Heath, otoh, is a leading man by definition. He hogs the screen when he's on it. One big beauitful up stager even when he underplays so gloriously. He deserved it this year. Totally.

And I'm confident he'll get rewarded some day. Capote is already forgotten. Hardly anyone even saw it.

But even more bewildering to me was the idea that Capote was a “gay” themed movie. When the failure to award Brokeback best picture Oscar elicited accusations of homophobia, one of the “replies” was that PSH had been awarded for playing Truman Capote, who was gay! WTF???  Not only was there “no sex” (as many pointed out), but neither was there any homosexuality! Can someone actually explain to me in what ways Capote is a “gay-themed” movie? What are the gay themes? How are they presented and worked out? In what ways does the film relate to the lived experience of homosexuality?

No you are so right. If I hadn't been told that he was gay up front, I wouldn't have known that "gay-ness" was a part of the movie at all. Yes, he is stereotypically affected like we've been taught to understand that gay men are. But the movie had nothing to do with any of that.... except the way he looked a bit hungry at times for the convict in the cell (who's acting was totally over looked and yet he was the only compelling part of the whole movie for me!).

Too right hayek. So glad to agree wit u yet again. 

[alma]

When Pastor Niemoeller wrote his famous lines about the Nazis coming first for the Jews, then the Communists, then the trade unions and by the time he did anything there was no-one left to speak out for him, I think many people tend to take this as words of repentence for a moral failing - and for the Pastor that may well have been the intention. For me, though, the significance of these words is political - act now to oppose the right or regret it later. In this sense the relatively small-scale oppression we face now - which let us not forget still causes murders and suicides in sufficient numbers - is a warning of what can be and that warning is as important as the remembrance of past attrocities.

Another brilliant redbrit post.

My I'm prolific this a.m.  Good to see you all.

[Erik]

Hi there everyone.....
The experience of being - although not having posted much (bit shy) - a part of this forum is unique.
The very first thing I did after seeing BBM for the first (but not only) time was to look for a place to help me further understand why I felt the way I did.
How could a movie have such an impact on me, I thought?
Wonderful, insightful, moving, confrontational, emotional, exceptional. So much emotion!
Then I found you guys! What luck!
Mostly I just read what you all have to say - very eloquent - and I feel good, and shout out: YES!
I tip my hat too all!
Greetings from Holland.
Rik.

Hoi Rik, let's start a Dutch thread then? :-)
Greetings from NL, Erik

[hayek_uk]

{{{{hayek_uk}}}}

::sending hugs and a mug of tea and my own tears::

This thread makes me all huggy and tender.

Ennis is the great cautionary tale, isn't he? We love him so much because we don't want to make his mistakes (mistakes we don't even mind forgiving because he is so endearingly wounded). Ennis is the risk taker when we look at him through the lens of his brokenness. It's just one big feat of courage to come out just enough to show that he loves Jack and wants to be loved. We love him... even as Jack loved him... for taking that chance.

And we love Jack for doing for us what we cannot do... he expands every time he should want to contract, he opens a way every time the door slams shut. Jack is the redeemer and even dies for love in the end... at least that's how it reads for me. All that needs doing, he does - he leaves nothing undone and is faithful to love. Then he squirrels away those bloody shirts in his private sanctuary, his place of memory, the icon of his heart.

Thank God Ennis finds those bloodied shirts! That moment is his epiphany, sacred love - his moment of liberation.

Of course we love him. And we cry for him. And for us.

{{{{ alma }}}}

Oh, it's so good to be in touch again with these feelings on this board --

and, Alma, lovely to find ourselves sharing so many feelings and ideas --

your posting has moved me and made me feel so fondly awe-struck -- awed again at the story and the souls of Ennis and Jack, and at Heath and Jake... the tears again, but sweet now, not bitter like before -- thank you

i guess Jack and Ennis are righteous, and justified --

(and so their material fates are as they should be, and they are at peace with that?)

[JohnJay]

JohnJay - drop us a note and let us know what you thought of the movie... you did see it today, didn't you? 

Hi, all.  Yes,  I did go to see BBM in the theater yesterday for the first time.  There were only four other people in the audience for the showing; all fairly elderly, probably in their 70's.  I sat smack in the center of the theater, and they were sitting well behind me near the back, so I really had no qualms any longer about my getting emotional during the movie.  Also, I had brought a good supply of tissues.

Not sure what words I can really add here that won't sound like I'm parroting all the range of feelings, descriptions, and superlatives that you have all been saying for months.  And yes, as you all said, it really needed to be seen on the big screen first before the DVD.  Besides specific scenes you've all discussed... one near the beginning still haunts me probably because of the impact of seeing it on the big screen:  Jack's first night up on the mountain, and he's looking from there waaaay down into the valley to see the tiny campfire in the distance where Ennis was.  God, I'd have loved to be able to read Jack's mind at that moment.  What was he thinking while looking down there?

And yes, I did get pretty emotional... lots of tears welling up, and out and out audible sobs not only during the last scenes, but it hit me especially hard during Ennis and Jack's final get together because I already knew it was going to be their last, and that was just killing me... it hurt so bad.

I guess what shocked me the most was that the movie just seemed too short!  It seemed to fly by and was over way too soon. I know some critics have said it was too long and should have been trimmed down by 20 minutes or so.  No way!  There were so many scenes between Jack and Ennis that I would have loved to last just a bit longer... just to be able to stay with the two of them, happy, for a little longer.  Who knows,  I can only hope for maybe a future special release expanded edition DVD  (Please!!)

Can't say enough about Jake and Heath's acting!  Actually... what acting??  Jake and Heath aren't up there on the screen acting because they just seemed to naturally be, and always were, Jack and Ennis.  Gotta say, Heath's Ennis was incredible.  But Jake was equally great, and yes, as many of you have stated... I really think Jack is the hero. Unfortunately, a tragic hero.  Well, as they say... "the good die young", and "no good deed goes unpunished"!  God!  Who wouldn't want to have Jack Twist as a good friend in their life?

When the movie ended, I just stayed in my seat through all the credits, giving time to compose myself before leaving.  By the time I did get up and turn around, I was alone, as the others sitting  behind me had already left, so no one saw how red my eyes were.  The drive home started well. I had the radio off, since I wanted it quiet so I could mull over and replay different scenes in my mind without distraction. After 15 minutes or so, I had to stop doing that because there were just too many things getting to me:  Like about their last get together.  I kept thinking I wanted to scream out to them: "Hey guys!  It's what, around 1980 now??  That's the year I came out at the age of 26. It was a decision I really needed to make, and its time for you guys to get with the times and just do it!  You've waited long enough. Now's the time!  I'll help if you need a place to stay, or some money to get your place started!"  I had to stop that kind of "what if" thinking!  For some diversion, I turned on the radio... an "oldies" station I frequently listen to, with songs of the 1960's when I was growing up, and that usually reminded me of simpler times in my life.

Well, when I turned on the radio, Peter, Paul, and Mary's version of Blowin' in the Wind was playing.  Its your typical Bob Dylan 60's anti-racism, anti-apartheid, anti-war, revolutionary (for back then) type song.  I always preferred PP&M's version, with their haunting harmonies to Dylan's... um, you know... "singing" style.  I thought...  Good, I like them, this'll calm me down.   It's a song I grew up with, one I've heard hundreds of times.  Just as I thought that, I immediately felt uneasy as words I've known for most of my life started to sink in with new meaning...

    ..."How many years must a Mountain exist, before it is washed to the Sea?
   How many years can some people exist, before they're allowed to be free?"
   And how many times can a man turn his head, and pretend that he just doesn't see?"

I totally involuntarily started to feel tears welling up.  Then a few sobs.  But then...

   "How many deaths will it take 'till he knows, that too many people have died?"

As soon as I heard that last bit with their haunting harmony... I totally lost it.  Thoughts of Jack's murder scene flooded me... scenes of that Wyoming fence where Matthew Shepard was killed and that ubiquitous portrait of him...  thoughts of a friend who died 15 years ago of AIDS.  I started crying uncontrollably, and quickly had to pull off and stop on the shoulder of the road. I turned off the radio and just leaned against the steering wheel crying so hard.  After a few minutes, it subsided, and I felt calm and OK, and continued home in a sort of post-cathartic peace.  I imagine in future days and weeks, little things in life... things I have been totally used to... will unexpectedly hit me in a new light, and remind me of THEM.  God, it took a lot of effort to get through the intermittant sobbing just trying to type this and recalling the events of the day.

Anyway... thank you all for convincing me not to just wait for the DVD, and to go see BBM in the theater before it was too late. You all were so right!

John

[OnesEnough]

...
But even more bewildering to me was the idea that Capote was a “gay” themed movie. When the failure to award Brokeback best picture Oscar elicited accusations of homophobia, one of the “replies” was that PSH had been awarded for playing Truman Capote, who was gay! WTF???  Not only was there “no sex” (as many pointed out), but neither was there any homosexuality! Can someone actually explain to me in what ways Capote is a “gay-themed” movie? What are the gay themes? How are they presented and worked out? In what ways does the film relate to the lived experience of homosexuality?

I saw Capote myself recently and had similar a reaction.
The only thing which I have remembered is the way Capote used Perry. The hedonistic, consumeristic, uncommitting, voyeristic side of Capote.
Capote did not even bother to go into the trouble of finding a lawyer once he had what he wanted from Perry (a first person recontre of the crime) - he stopped seeing the two convicts in fact - maybe he thought it was useless, and actually I don't care what he thought. He said he "loved" Perry to his research assistant, but who coul use a love like that?

[alma]

John that was beautiful! So glad you shared about the Dylan song. Isn't it odd how everything changes after - how you hear words differently? I loved that you wanted to give J&E a safe house - a place they could come out together. That really touched me.

[BayCityJohn]

But even more bewildering to me was the idea that Capote was a “gay” themed movie. When the failure to award Brokeback best picture Oscar elicited accusations of homophobia, one of the “replies” was that PSH had been awarded for playing Truman Capote, who was gay! WTF???  Not only was there “no sex” (as many pointed out), but neither was there any homosexuality! Can someone actually explain to me in what ways Capote is a “gay-themed” movie? What are the gay themes? How are they presented and worked out? In what ways does the film relate to the lived experience of homosexuality?

Truman Capote was the type of gay person that the Academy members could accept. In fact most of America in the 50's and 60's thought we were all like him. He was one of the few 'role models' I had when I was growing up. He didn't threaten anyone's masculinity.

As far as Hoffman's performance I thought it was ok. At least he was consistent throughout the movie, even if it was consistently flat. Truman Capote did 99% of the character development for Hoffman. PSH had it pretty easy. Heath Ledger built his character almost from scratch. I didn't think he would be able to do it but he blew me away. (and i wouldn't mind returning the favor

[BayCityJohn]

Besides specific scenes you've all discussed... one near the beginning still haunts me probably because of the impact of seeing it on the big screen:  Jack's first night up on the mountain, and he's looking from there waaaay down into the valley to see the tiny campfire in the distance where Ennis was.  God, I'd have loved to be able to read Jack's mind at that moment.  What was he thinking while looking down there?

During the day Ennis looked across a great gulf and sometimes saw Jack, a small dot moving across a high meadow as an insect moves across a tablecloth; Jack, in his dark camp, saw Ennis as a night fire, a red spark on the huge black mass of mountain.
- From Brokeback Mountain by Annie Proulx

[whiplash]

JohnJay - drop us a note and let us know what you thought of the movie... you did see it today, didn't you? 

...I guess what shocked me the most was that the movie just seemed too short!  It seemed to fly by and was over way too soon. I know some critics have said it was too long and should have been trimmed down by 20 minutes or so.  No way!  There were so many scenes between Jack and Ennis that I would have loved to last just a bit longer... just to be able to stay with the two of them, happy, for a little longer.  Who knows,  I can only hope for maybe a future special release expanded edition DVD  (Please!!)...

...For some diversion, I turned on the radio... an "oldies" station I frequently listen to, with songs of the 1960's when I was growing up, and that usually reminded me of simpler times in my life.

Well, when I turned on the radio, Peter, Paul, and Mary's version of Blowin' in the Wind was playing...
    ..."How many years must a Mountain exist, before it is washed to the Sea?
   How many years can some people exist, before they're allowed to be free?"
   And how many times can a man turn his head, and pretend that he just doesn't see?"

I totally involuntarily started to feel tears welling up.  Then a few sobs.  But then...

   "How many deaths will it take 'till he knows, that too many people have died?"...

John

John - so glad you finally got to see the movie.  I know exactly what you mean about the time flying - I have never seen a movie that was this long, go so fast, every time I see it.  Never enough, never enough... I also know what you mean about the PP&M song.  I love music, can't get enough, and always feel a strong emotional tie to music - every song I have heard since BBM seems to relate to it in one way or another.  Thanks for updating us and take care.

[danac]

Hi there everyone.....
The experience of being - although not having posted much (bit shy) - a part of this forum is unique.
The very first thing I did after seeing BBM for the first (but not only) time was to look for a place to help me further understand why I felt the way I did.
How could a movie have such an impact on me, I thought?
Wonderful, insightful, moving, confrontational, emotional, exceptional. So much emotion!
Then I found you guys! What luck!
Mostly I just read what you all have to say - very eloquent - and I feel good, and shout out: YES!
I tip my hat too all!
Greetings from Holland.

Rik.
Hoi Rik, let's start a Dutch thread then? :-)
Greetings from NL, Erik

Greetings from New York, Erik ! You're so right...this forum is the ONLY thing that keeps desolation at bay for me. For weeks, I couldn't talk to anyone who hadn't seen the film - or who didn't feel it like I did - and I walked around teary-eyed all the time. Then, I found these guys...and I still tear up thinking about Jack and Ennis, but I can sit here and cry with other people that GET IT !
Welcome, friend.

[danac]

Anyway... thank you all for convincing me not to just wait for the DVD, and to go see BBM in the theater before it was too late. You all were so right!

John

BRAVO, JohnJay!!!

[Erik]

The more thsi movie sinks in, the more i feel sorry for Jack.. He knew wha the wanted but did not get anything, not even his last wish was granted him.. about the ashes..

I wonder, what were his feelings after the last meeting, did he in some way say goodbye to Ennis? Was the relationship in his eyes over? I mean, he said he could not go on like this.. Did he die, thinking that he and Ennis were not together anymore? Did he die so sad?

[DaveinPhilly]

But even more bewildering to me was the idea that Capote was a “gay” themed movie. When the failure to award Brokeback best picture Oscar elicited accusations of homophobia, one of the “replies” was that PSH had been awarded for playing Truman Capote, who was gay! WTF???  Not only was there “no sex” (as many pointed out), but neither was there any homosexuality! Can someone actually explain to me in what ways Capote is a “gay-themed” movie? What are the gay themes? How are they presented and worked out? In what ways does the film relate to the lived experience of homosexuality?

Truman Capote was the type of gay person that the Academy members could accept. In fact most of America in the 50's and 60's thought we were all like him. He was one of the few 'role models' I had when I was growing up. He didn't threaten anyone's masculinity.

As far as Hoffman's performance I thought it was ok. At least he was consistent throughout the movie, even if it was consistently flat. Truman Capote did 99% of the character development for Hoffman. PSH had it pretty easy. Heath Ledger built his character almost from scratch. I didn't think he would be able to do it but he blew me away. (and i wouldn't mind returning the favor

I second Bay City John's observations about Truman Capote and the film.  My partner & I rather enjoyed the film, but it wasn't extraordinary in any way save for the fact that PSH mimicked Capote to a tee. If mimickry is the test for best acting, then I suppose he deserved his award. What with watching endless TV clips and film footage of the  fellow - and probably actual remeniscences of Capote he had only to study him. I know countless American "queens" who could do as well.  Most Yanks were both repelled and amused by Capote, who was a constant feature on TV talk shows and gossip columns. Safe queers are ones who can be kept "corralled" at a distance.

No, Heath Ledger's portrayal of a fictional character in which he brought to life a human of such reality and pathos is among, if not the most brilliant acting I've ever seen. Ennis del Mar in the hands and mind of Heath Ledger is incomparable and unforgetable.

DaveinPhilly

[Zuraffo]

I would rather say I admired him though. He is so steadfast in love that he basically sacrifice everything to protect his lover, and to maintain his relationship. That's a strength that a lot of people cannot even hope to emulate.

So, yes I admired him a lot. And I don't really feel sorry for him either. He found the true love of his life! How many of us can say that? How many people out there in the world can say that?

The more thsi movie sinks in, the more i feel sorry for Jack.. He knew wha the wanted but did not get anything, not even his last wish was granted him.. about the ashes..

I wonder, what were his feelings after the last meeting, did he in some way say goodbye to Ennis? Was the relationship in his eyes over? I mean, he said he could not go on like this.. Did he die, thinking that he and Ennis were not together anymore? Did he die so sad?