How Brokeback affected me

[Poohbunn]

am i alone in thinking that on some level, alma jr. knows? 

I think so too.  She must have overheard her mother talking about it, and she did meet Jack. Knowing that her father was seeing him two or three times a year for her entire life, she would have to know.   She's of a different generation and probably is more open minded than her mother.  I hope he does open up to her at some point, so he won't have to remain silent about his pain forever.

[hayek_uk]

Another thing that strikes me as really fine about the way your husband saw things (apart from the whole reach of his appreciation, which was so able to feel with Jack and Ennis) is that he didn't get hung up on the physical stuff, the kissing or fucking, which seems so often to be where even the most positive straight men's responses end up.

Well, that was interesting.  I asked him if he had any trouble with them kissing and having sex on screen, and he said, not really, but he was a whole lot more comfortable with the Snit than with the Fnit.  He said that during the Fnit he kept thinking, "Wow, that has to hurt!"  I asked him if the Fnit seemed really abrupt to him, and he said:  "Well, neither of those guys was going to come out and say anything about being interested in getting it on.  And Jack was really flirting with him.  So I figure Ennis was feeling pretty horny and trying to keep from thinking about it too much, and then they get drunk and end up in the tent and Jack makes it real clear that he wants some action.  And Ennis just reacts."  So what about the Snit, I ask. "Well, he tells himself it doesn't mean they're queer, and he makes sure Jack knows he isn't, really, but once you've let it happen, you might as well really let go and enjoy it while you can.  He thinks everything will go back to normal once they go back down the mountain."  So what does Jack think?  My husband grinned and said: "Fast or slow, I just like the direction you're goin'."
 

That's about the best analysis of the sex scenes I've read. Absolutely brilliant! And I guess I'd repeat what I said before - not hung up on the sex: that is, able to see it as something OTHER men do, that is fine, has its own logic and satisfaction, and acknowledgement of the variation and validity of which is not a threat or a cause for hand-wringing and defensive distancing.

But more importantly (personally), it makes me feel really calm and relaxed. If the world of straight men had roughly that kind of way of looking at things, I wouldn't much bother worrying any more. And a whole great chunk of my life spent dealing with how I want to be understood and treated, and the conseqences of not being, could be completely given over to worthwhile things!

I would be happy, and feel very free, and look forward to the future with a partner as fine as your husband! (I hope that doesn't sound patronising!)

[JohnJay]

"Fnit"?  I can tell from the context what you're talking about... but am I so out of the loop as to never have heard this term before?  I Googled it and all I found was "Fast Neutron Imaging Telescope"! 

[adamblast]

"Fnit"?  I can tell from the context what you're talking about... but am I so out of the loop as to never have heard this term before?  I Googled it and all I found was "Fast Neutron Imaging Telescope"! 

First Night In Tent & Second Night In Tent...   And you don't need to be "out of the loop" to be confused...  Those initials are used casually over in the Scene by Scene subforum, but no one should expect anyone else to know what they mean with those initials...

[Wolf]

 

have just had the searing experience of watching Snuffle007's Youtube entitled "Kissing You"

if you haven't seen it, do it NOW.  turn up the volume and prepare to sob.

.......unbearably beautiful

w

[Jenny]

Oops!  Sorry Johnjay.  I'm so used to using those abbreviations, which I learned from another thread, I guess, that I never thought about Fast neuron imaging telescope.   All I could think of when you posted that was: I don't think you'd really need one of those to see what Ennis and Jack were doing.

As for my husband being a good partner, you don't have to convince me, hayek_uk.   Didn't think it was patronizing at all.  When I told him I thought that really made sense, but I'd never thought about it that way, he said "That's because you're not a guy.  They're just guys who like guys."

[Wolf]

Jenny, thought I'd chime in with my own 'cheers' to your hubby.  Mine has refused to see it in the cinema  , but has agreed to watch the DVD.  Silly thing is, I KNOW he'll love it - it's entirely his kinda movie. 

He's many great things, my hubby (of 16 wonderful years), but 100% comfortable with man + man sex scenes he's not.  I'm not going to force the issue, and am quite ok with the thought that he'll ultimately see it and love it. 

What a shame this work of staggering beauty is one so many of us can't share with our loved ones.   

w

[notBastet]

(edited for relevance to reply)

  I love music, can't get enough, and always feel a strong emotional tie to music - every song I have heard since BBM seems to relate to it in one way or another.  .

me too... e.g. "Desperado" The Eagles.

[notBastet]

The screenplay also has three short scenes, one after the other [between Alma/Ennis - "You forgettin' somethin'") and Jack/Bobby on the tractor] that were omitted from the movie (I don't know if they were filmed and ended up on the editing room floor, or if they were "cut" before that):

(1)           
               Fine campsite in the mountains.

               JACK's late model clean-as-a-pin pickup truck and horse trailer.

               TWO HORSES tethered nearby.

               ENNIS in his old pickup truck pulls up to a campsite.

               He can see in his headlights that JAck has already set up camp.

               Toots the horn. Smiles.

               JACK comes out of the tent,
               the intense pleasure of being with Ennis all over his face.


(2)           
               Campsite. Night.

               ENNIS: Look what I brought.

                    Offers a small brown paper bag. JACK weighs it in his hands, opens it:
                    a couple of cans of beans.

               JACK: Beans

               ENNIS: Gonna fix 'em just the way I used to.

                    Jack smiles.
             

(3) 
               ENNIS and JACK are horseback, trotting across a high meadow. JACK fiddles with his rope.
               Ropes a sagebrush, then throws it at a rabbit.

               JACK
               Wish we'd jump a coyote. I'd love to rope a coyote.

               ENNIS (skeptical of Jack's prowess with the lariat)
               I doubt I'll live to see that miracle

               They laugh.

I had decided not to buy the screenplay based on other posts about discrepancies with dates throughout.  I am so glad you shared the scenes above - I think I have changed my mind.

[notBastet]

   i think it is telling that ennis asks alma jr. "does he love you?"  - this is his only concern, that alma jr. has found real love. 

Your statement brings tears to my eyes.  It makes me realize that Ennis felt/knew more about his love for Jack than I have given him credit for.  To want love for his daugter means (I think) that he knows he and Jack had love.  And knowing that Ennis knows that, takes away some of the tragedy for me.

[notBastet]

There's no one in my life that I can talk to, and I'm hurting so bad. I can hardly bring myself to post this publicly, but I have to say it to someone, and I'm so thankful you guys are here.

BBM brought back all those memories that had been put away for so many years;memories that had begun to fade with time. Then suddenly I could think of nothing else and everything was vivid in my mind again.

My search for Billy has ended.  This afternoon I received confirmation that he passed away several years ago.  I just can't hardly stand it.  There's so much I wanted to say to him.  I feel so utterly alone now.  I've never had to grieve before. 

For several weeks I've had the feeling that he might be gone because my search wouldn't turn up anything, nothing.  Last week I drove 650 miles round trip to his high school in Georgia, just trying to find his picture in an old yearbook.  When I got there I found the yearbooks for those years were missing.

Who would have guessed that the school librarian would be the key.  When I told her Billy's name, she said she thought he might be the grandfather of one of the students at the school. She offered to bring in the student, but I told her I didn't think it would be proper for me to question a student.  She said she would find out and call me.  The call came this morning. 

The child said her grandmother (Billy's wife Ruth) lives in Atlanta, and there was a phone number.  I called Ruth a little while ago.  She was very cordial, remembered me from years ago, and invited me to come visit.  At first I declined, but she insisted, so I go to Atlanta next week.

Meanwhile the tears won't stop.  My wife noticed this afternoon but I just shrugged it off.  She knows nothing of Billy.  How do you explain to your wife that you're going out of town to meet another woman who was the wife of the man you've loved for fifty years? 

And then there's Ruth.  Is she going to see it in my face?  OMG, this is probably a big mistake, but if I don't make the trip, I'll never know what I must know.

Paul Mejack

I pretend to know nothing about affairs of the heart, but to me, it seems right to go.  Do you love your wife?  Does she love you?  If you were my grandpa, and your wife my grandma, I would still want you to go.  Travel safely.

[heartbreaker]

I think some have been too progressive for that generation.  Even though we can see what's going on and understand it all I don't think Jack nor Ennis fully knew what was happening to them.  They were brought up to shun that type of thing.  I am surprised that they were together as much as they were considering.  Throughout the entire movie with all the angst and fear and repression as well as passion, secrecy and audacity, Neither Jack nor Ennis ever said the words, "I LOVE YOU".  Never were they uttered in the entire film.  This tells me that either what they were feeling was still very internalized that they didn't know that they actually loved each other OR they were deathly afraid of admitting it.

This is true of many in my generation (15 yrs younger than Jack & Ennis), and certainly of many gays in their generation:  We grew up closeted, fearing our feelings,  and many full of self-loathing.  They felt love, but to admit that and say it out loud would be to admit to something they grew up learning to hate.  Certainly they understood their feelings for each other... and each other knew.  At their first parting, Ennis doubles over and almost gets sick over Jack's leaving.  That wasn't about sex, that was love... probably the first time he realized to himself the true life-altering meaning of those feelings... and that terrified him.  Admitting it, saying "I love you" out loud for anyone else to hear (even Jack) would be just too much.  Jack might have been more open to say it... but probably knew Ennis really wouldn't want to hear it.   But they knew.   Gay guys growing up today, in this post-Ellen, Will and Grace world may have a lot of the fears and worries about being different, but its probably not as much self-hate as an older generation.  Today, there are gays on TV, role models, etc.  Back then, we were meant to believe we really didn't exist.

Eventually, the tide will turn.  I think there is less worry over bashing today as well with so many gays that look like muscle bound body builders they are less likely to be attacked by what I call, their self-denying brethren.  Brokeback got me good but I long await the film that shows us the triumph of love and winning instead of losing, living instead of dying.

[notBastet]

My reply got all mixed up in Redbrit's comments, so if it's confusing I didn't mean it to be.  I just feel really bad about some of the comments that have been posted in response to my thoughts about the scene with Ennis and his girls and Jack coming to be with him.  I was hurt by some of them and I am too upset to talk anymore.  I think maybe some people should remember that we are just human beings here trying to make some sense out of a movie and characters that really touched a chord in us.  But I don't like feeling like I should be ashamed of what I think or say.  I see things the way I see them and I try to have the courage to question things I don't understand or look inside myself to see things I may not want to see.  That's all I wanted to say for now.

Hi Mindy,
I just wanted to say that I have appreciated all of your posts and I don't think anyone was intentionally trying to make you feel ashamed.
Kelly

[tfferg]

Taking the liberty of posting this article posted by Constans on the Reviews from around the world thread because it seems so relevant and puts Brokeback in a wider context.


Reaction to BBM by the great (and out - obviously) South African\British actor Antony Sher, from today's Guardian.


'I didn't just hide in the closet - I locked myself in. One moment in the cinema changed that'

A personal view of gay movies, by Antony Sher

Thursday March 23, 2006
The Guardian


I saw Brokeback Mountain at the right moment. In December last year the Civil Partnership Act came into being, granting legal status to same-sex couples. My partner of 19 years, Greg Doran, and I were among the first to get hitched, and we enjoyed a day of unadulterated celebration and warmth - from the staff at the register office, from family and friends at our party, even from the media. Then we went on honeymoon to Africa. Our travel agent had tipped off the various hotels, and there were bottles of champagne awaiting us in every bedroom, as well as flower petals strewn in the shape of hearts. Camp, certainly, but delightful. For a few weeks it seemed that the whole world was gay-friendly. Then we came home and saw Brokeback Mountain.It affected us deeply. Not only because of its unflinching portrayal of a difficult love affair, but because it was a timely reminder that for some people the love that dare not speak its name is still a painful reality. The film may be set in the 1960s, but it has been banned in modern-day Utah, and is unlikely to be seen in, say, the Muslim world, or indeed many African countries, despite the welcome Greg and I received in their luxury hotels.
Shortly afterwards, we saw Capote, and again we left the cinema reeling. Hollywood seemed to have grown up overnight. Like Brokeback Mountain, Capote is quietly paced, emotionally painful, and there's not an exploding car in sight. And both films have gay characters at their centre. In Capote he's not just gay but, let's face it, a real old-style screamer. What I find remarkable about Philip Seymour Hoffman's performance is how internalised it is, managing to be outrageous and understated at the same time.

Both films have received critical acclaim, top awards and wide distribution. So is this the moment when gay cinema goes mainstream?

"Well, I'm not sure that Brokeback Mountain and Capote really qualify as gay films," says Martin Sherman, writer of gay films like Bent and Alive and Kicking (in which I played one of the leads). "Brokeback Mountain is about two straight men who happen to have a gay affair, and Capote is about an author, who happens to be gay, going to any lengths to get his story."

Sherman explains there's a divide between this kind of cinema, made by mainly straight people, and queer cinema, a purer form where the films are not only about gay subjects, but made by gay people. Perhaps the best mainstream example of queer cinema is Gods and Monsters: the writer/ director (Bill Condon) and star (Ian McKellen) are both openly gay, and the main character in the story is gay. It was a landmark when that film received several Oscar nominations, and won best adapted screenplay.

Ian McKellen sees a clear role for queer cinema: "There are unknown stories that only gay people can bear witness to." He adds: "But I can't object to straight actors playing gay parts because then straight people would have to object to the amount of time I've spent in my career playing straight." I agree with him. I'm wary of ghetto art. In the theatre we have a good phrase, "colour-blind casting", referring to the fact that black actors can now play white parts (Adrian Lester as Henry V, David Oyelowo as Henry VI) without audiences minding or even noticing. In the same way, I don't really give a damn whether Philip Seymour Hoffman, Jake Gyllenhaal and Heath Ledger are gay or not. It's enough that they convince me.

Queer cinema is at the heart of the forthcoming London Lesbian and Gay film festival (LLGFF). It was a pleasant surprise to me that this is its 20th anniversary - 20 years of celebrating gay, lesbian or queer cinema! Call it what you will, that's quite something.

During my lifetime there are several films that have profoundly affected me and my sexuality, yet they may not qualify as either gay or queer cinema, and I'm afraid I have to confess that lesbian cinema hardly features at all.

I was brought up in a fiercely intolerant environment: the old South Africa. Ruled by the National Party, the country was racist, misogynist, anti-semitic and, of course, homophobic. I knew I was gay from an early age, yet felt confused and terrified by it - I didn't just hide in the closet, I locked myself in. One moment in the cinema changed that. It was only a moment, but in a society as heavily censored as ours you could only hope for tiny glimpses of the outside world.

Many films were banned outright, but John Schlesinger's Darling (1965) somehow got through. There's a gay character in it, a photographer played by Roland Curram. He and Julie Christie go on holiday to a Mediterranean island, and one morning over breakfast in their hotel, a beautiful waiter makes eye contact with Curram. Later that night Christie spots them riding away together on a scooter. They're going to have sex - even I knew that - although the South African censor didn't; he probably thought the waiter was taking Curram to the family home for prayers and teacakes. But it was the moment of eye contact over breakfast that really electrified me: that dark, sexy look was like an invitation to pack my bags and travel to the place we called Overseas.

Seeing another Schlesinger film revealed to me that Overseas was not quite as liberated as I hoped. The film was Sunday Bloody Sunday. It was 1971, I was a drama student in London, and I went to see it in a Leicester Square cinema. The character of Daniel (Peter Finch) was most intriguing to me: he was gay, yes, and this made him sometimes happy, sometimes miserable, but it was only part of his life, running alongside his work as a doctor and his role in his Jewish family. His gayness was ordinary. This was reassuring to me, yet clearly threatening to others. Early on in the film, Daniel's young lover Bob (Murray Head) arrives at his house, and they kiss. They're in a corridor, they're fully clothed, they're just saying hello really. And yet all around me in that Leicester Square cinema, the audience let out a loud, ugly noise, half gasp, half howl - a noise that would have been an appropriate response to some violent murder. It went through me, that noise. This was the moment of realising that I might be in London, Swinging London, yet I still didn't feel safe.

What I hadn't fully understood was that Britain itself was still adjusting to the idea of homosexuality being acceptable. Shortly after I saw Sunday Bloody Sunday, a friend took me to see Basil Dearden's 1961 film Victim (banned in South Africa), and explained how it had led to a change in the law. Its grim exposure of the blackmailing network actively helped to decriminalise homosexuality - even if this took another six years to achieve, with the Wolfenden Report in 1967. So my gayness was legal now, here in my new land, if not yet embraced, by either my fellow citizens or indeed myself. Oddly enough, Victim's star, Dirk Bogarde, seemed to be engaged in a similar personal struggle. It was remarkably brave of him, as a Rank Film matinee idol, to make Victim - and he would go on to make another gay film that had a powerful impact on me, Death in Venice (1971) - yet he was forever dodging the question of his own sexuality in interviews, and radiating a curious self-hatred.

Does coming out matter? Yes it does. McKellen puts it well: "We can't expect the world to like us if we don't tell them we're here." Coming out is a different issue from the sexual orientation of the stars of Brokeback Mountain and Capote. The coming out of prominent actors is vital - for the individual's own dignity and to provide a role model for others - but that actor's sexuality should not then affect his or her casting. McKellen is scathing about contemporary Hollywood: "They'll let me play a grey-bearded wizard, but they still wouldn't cast a young gay actor - who was out - in a straight romantic lead."

Documentary films have played a big part in my own acceptance and eventual celebration of my sexuality. A particular favourite was A Bigger Splash (1974), about David Hockney. He's so relaxed about being gay that you start to feel the same way. Another documentary that gripped me was The Times of Harvey Milk (1986), about the life of an American gay activist. He was a politician in San Francisco, murdered, along with the mayor, by a homophobic colleague. The lenient sentence handed out to the murderer - he served only five years - sparked off riots in the city. The shock of this story certainly helped motivate me to fight rather than hide.

Gay cinema keeps manifesting itself in different forms, like Aids films (the most famous being Philadelphia in 1993) or gay directors' films (the work of Gus Van Sant and Todd Haynes). Then there's a category that could be called sexy nude films. Unlike other aspects of identity - race, religion, age - our sexuality is about what we like to do in bed, so when we go to see a film on the subject there's always going to be a slight overlap with porn.

Sexy nude films are ones that I've tended to enjoy rather than admire, films in which the director shares his erotic fantasies with me. Pasolini's films, for example. They purported to be epic screen versions of the world's great stories, like The Decameron (1971) and The Canterbury Tales (1971), but were often clumsy and slow, and I had to console myself that at least it wouldn't be long before that dishy young Italian on the screen took off his clothes. Derek Jarman is regarded as one of the founders of queer cinema, and I applaud his work as a pioneer, yet his films only ever engaged me on the most basic level, especially Sebastiane (1976), where Jarman even managed to slip an erection past the censor, the organ in question fooling the eye by extending on a more horizontal than vertical plane.

I've seen a sample of films from this year's LLGFF. Among the feature-length movies, I was very taken with a lesbian film, a dark tale called Unveiled, about a woman fleeing persecution in Iraq. As always, though, the documentaries carry most impact for me: they are, as McKellen says, "the unknown stories that only gay people can bear witness to". There's a disturbing German film, Men, Heroes, Gay Nazis, in which gay neo-Nazis twist themselves into knots trying to reconcile the two sides of their identities; a South African short, Silenced, where black men talk of being raped; and, best of all, a fascinating American piece called Gay Sex in the 70s. This is a picture of gay life in New York between the Stonewall riots (June 1969) and the arrival of Aids (June 1981): a decade of incredibly promiscuous sex in places that are described in almost mythic terms (the Pier, the Trucks, the Park, the Island); a decade that one interviewee identifies as "the most licentious period the world has seen since ancient Rome". I never visited New York during that period, but I remember the stories, and how exciting they seemed then - like fantasies, like movies.

Cinema is a powerful medium, nearly as powerful as our subconscious, and gay, lesbian or queer cinema is no different from what I suppose is called straight cinema. I'd like to see them all merge together. And that's why I believe the brilliance and success of Brokeback Mountain and Capote do mark a significant moment in the history of film-making. Back in 1971, when I saw Peter Finch and Murray Head kiss in Sunday Bloody Sunday, the audience let out a gasping howl of shock. In 2006, when Jake Gyllenhaal and Heath Ledger kiss on their first reunion in Brokeback Mountain - publicly, crazily, unable to stop themselves - there was no such noise from the people around me. I sensed everyone was just as moved as I was. We've all experienced the ecstasy and hunger of those reunions, along with that awful countdown that immediately starts ticking away to the next farewell. The gender of the two people on the screen was (almost) incidental.

BTW
I often used to hear Mozart's beautiful ensemble piece Soave sia il vento (May the wind be gentle) from Cosi fan tutte on the radio and find myself getting a strong nervous reaction in the stomach, a reaction that mystified me until I saw Sunday Bloody Sunday again. It was on the soundtrack during the kiss between Peter Finch and Murray Head. Since then I haven't had that gut reaction to the music though I still love it.

[Philo]

The provincial government of Alberta has a very nice website with ALL the information about the exact locations where the movie was shot...you can really see everything, from the trailer where they took their jobs from Aguirre to the river where they jumped from the rock, everything really..

So what would you guys prefer to see, Alberta with everything from the movie or better go to Wyoming where it 'really' happened?............

Hey don't be talking down Wyoming. We have a Brokeback Mountain web page too. They didn't make the movie here because there weren't enough people here! I kind of like that! So if you want to experience the landscape that inspirers Annie come on up! ( I would love to see Alberta sometime too)

My fantasy BbM summer gathering would be a week in Wyoming and then caravaning to Alberta to spend the second week there.  Lots to see in both places....